WolfBitn Posted July 23, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted July 23, 2009 John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. I have seen many disputes concerning the nature of the law and the nature of grace. It seems that some believe they are competitive, as in "The Law Vs. Grace". It seems some feel they are mutually exclusive, as in "if we are under law we are not under grace, and if we are under grace we are under no law". In what i see from scripture i believe there is a better view, which i will present as the law of "Law AND Grace". I am a gentile grafted into the House of Israel, which IS the church of God and are the children of God, after all, the church is nothing more than a sect of the Jew, and it is from this unique position that i have observed this within the church... Having attended several denominational and nondenominational churches, as well as having the pleasure of studying the Tenach and the Torah from a Jewish perspective at times, i have noted that Some within the denominational churches snub their noses at the law, claiming "i am not under the law because i am under grace". On the flip side i have seen some imply there was no grace before and during the Law. I wish to show that from Adam til now, there has always been law and there has always been grace, and that Yeshuah is the fulfillment of both. i will try to be brief so as to not make this a book Adam - Adam was under the law of "Thou shalt not eat of this tree". We know that Adam ate of the tree following his wife. Adam in reality was the only man that ever lived, who was in the position of playing the role played by Yeshuah (Jesus) Himself, as Savior of the world. We know though that when he fell, he doomed all mankind, and no one but the man, our God, Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ could now play this part for us. Before his fall though Adam could very well have gone straight to God and said "Lord, my wife has eaten of the fruit... i KNOW your law says she must die. She is my gift to me from you though, and i love her... PLEASE... let her live and take my life as a ransom for hers and let me pay her price... Would God have accepted this? Adam was perfect, sinless, and qualified as her sacrifice, but alas he ate too and eliminated all mankind, neccessitating that God Himself would pay the price if we were to be saved at all. We see though that God had grace on Adam in spite of Adam's failure. We see the sacrifice instituted and God made them clothing. So Adam was under a law... and in failure of the law, he experienced the Grace of God by way of the sacrifice and more. Cain and Abel - These brothers were under a law of sacrifice. Cain fell miserably, offering an evil sacrifice, but God did not strike Cain down... Instead, He had grace on Can and He asked Cain, "Why are you so down and angry Cain? If youll only do good in your sacrifice you will be accepted". So Cain was under law, and yet he received grace, with God even pleading with him to do right... He received further grace by being banished to Nod rather than being destroyed for the murder of his brother Abel. Noah - Noah performed sacrifice under law. Yet we read the words "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." So then added to the sacrifice, was a new law... "Thou shalt build an Arc", and through this arc, God's law brought about destruction on the wicked allowing more grace for all mankind through Noah's obedience. Lot - We see that God in wrath destroyed the cities in the plains, and yet had grace on Lot, either for Lot's sake or Abraham's. All through time we see man under law, and we see God's grace shed on man. The fact that Yeshuah even came to this world as our sacrifice of course, being His greatest demonstration of grace toward us. Now we are in the age of grace as it is called. Many say we are no longer under the law. This i find to be in error. No the law cannot save us, but the law does direct us. Though we are under grace, murderers, adulterers and such STILL shall not inheirit the kingdom if they remain unrepentant. "Thou shalt not kill" is STILL a good and valid law, as are all the laws of Moses. If we break the law we are still guilty whether we take the name of Yeshuah or not. We are not saved by the law, but rather, all stand condemned when they break it. And it is GRACE that saves us from the law IF we repent and turn from our evil and conform to 'thou shalt not kill' and 'repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'. So we see indeed that we are now under a law of salvation. Just as there was once the law of "Thou shalt not eat of this tree, or thou shalt surely die", the law now stands "Repent and believe, and thou shalt surely live" The law demonstrates what we do and dont do to our neighbor if we love them, and how we respond to God if we love HIM. Repentance in itself is a law which opens the door to receive this grace personally. Law and grace are simply 2 sides to the same coin, and we cannot have one without the other and still have justice and goodness in God. It isnt a matter of law OR grace... ...it is a matter of law AND grace, and from Adam to now they have both operated for our benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokemaughan Posted July 23, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 74 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 630 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/09/1990 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Paul's letter to the Romans sheds a good deal of light on the issue. The law itself does not justify but makes sin known. It is faith in God that justifies. You also mentioned that if we sin (break the law) and do not forsake and repent, we will not inherit the kingdom. Paul also talks of this, about how the Jews were cut off the tree because of their unfaithfulness/unbelief and we were grafted in... because we are faithful. Make no mistake, God will cut you off if you lose your faith. That's not to say you cannot come around and be grafted in again, but God is the definition of justice and will not be mocked. Some may say, "Oh that's not very nice that can't be!" The beginning of wisdom is fearing the Lord. He is not our servant, but we His. Read Romans 11:11-24... if you don't feel fear and conviction, that stony heart needs melted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anitarose Posted July 23, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 65 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,066 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1961 Share Posted July 23, 2009 YES!!!! The Bride of Yeshua is waking up finally!!! Just from these two posts, I have hope that the ONE NEW MAN will finally come to pass. Thanks, WolfBtn----you are RIGHT ON in where you're going. Yeshua said that the law will not pass away till ALL be fulfilled, and that will happen in the MILLENIUM..... a. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted July 23, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 287 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/26/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/07/1967 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Paul speaks of the Law passing away here in 2 Cor 3: 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted July 23, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 23, 2009 The question is what is the proper function of the law and how should we understand it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted July 23, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted July 23, 2009 Law and grace are simply 2 sides to the same coin, and we cannot have one without the other and still have justice and goodness in God. It isnt a matter of law OR grace... ...it is a matter of law AND grace, and from Adam to now they have both operated for our benefit. Yes that the way I see it also. G-d covers us with His grace when we fall and sin, the law is there to show us our sins and to help us correct our ways. David said the law was a delight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted July 23, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 Paul speaks of the Law passing away here in 2 Cor 3: 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. So then you would disagree that we are now under the law of Repent and Believe? You believe that its ok now to do murder? Its ok to steal? To commit adultry? Or do you have a real understanding of not being 'under the law' but 'under grace'? EricH The question is what is the proper function of the law and how should we understand it Would you agree the law shows us what is good and what is evil? Our school teacher? And what of the law to repent and believe? Is this not a law? We surely cannot make it to the Kingdom of God without obeying this law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anitarose Posted July 23, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 65 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,066 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1961 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Paul speaks of the Law passing away here in 2 Cor 3: 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted July 24, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 287 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/26/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/07/1967 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So then you would disagree that we are now under the law of Repent and Believe? You believe that its ok now to do murder? Its ok to steal? To commit adultry? Or do you have a real understanding of not being 'under the law' but 'under grace'? I know that I do not have to sacrifice animals to repent of my sin. If you are trying to get me to say that God has no judgement, you won't hear that from me. But loving God and our neighbors sums up our directive. If I do both I do well. If I do things you suggested, I love neither God nor my neighbor. Your second question confuses is me. How could I say my understanding is not real. It is real to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted July 24, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 287 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/26/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/07/1967 Share Posted July 24, 2009 If you read that again, it talks about the Law of SIN, not the Torah (teachings and instructions). We are still under the Torah, that has not passed. Even Rabbi Sh'aul (Paul) says that. When the galut (the veil) is removed, THEN we all will understand it. There's even a galut over the Christians. a. Please instruct me on how the law of sin is different than the law of Moses, which I thought was the topic of discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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