WolfBitn Posted July 29, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2009 Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Could this possibly be a referance to Christ AND Lucifer, the anointed cherob, BEFORE his rebellion? Is this possibly saying that when Christ and Lucifer sang together the angels shouted for joy? *referance Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. Ezekiel 28 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Its interesting to me that someone with such magnificence built into him, someone in a position of SUCH GLORY in the kingdom of God, someone whos been there at the throne, someone God trusted... and blessed... someone who saw God's glory and Holiness and such awesomeness theres no word for it... could grow to despise Him and turn against Him, rebelling willingly... We do that here on earth all the time as human beings... imagine knowing all that though, before his fall... was he ever happy? yes i would think probobly so... How much easier is it for us to fall in our such worthless pride having seen nothing close to that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted July 29, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 287 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/26/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/07/1967 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) I am pretty uncomfortable with putting Jesus and Satan under the same category. One is God, one is created, putting them together like brothers is what the Mormons do and it is blasphemous. I think the son's of God In Job are heavenly creatures, angels included. -Rev 22:16 I came across this verse the other day and wondered. It seems to be Jesus by the David reference, but I know that historically Lucifer refers to the morning star, One who tried to topple heaven. As Venus appears before the Sun but fails to conquer heaven. I believe it was a Canaanite myth. This is how Satan gets the nickname Lucifer because he rebelled in Heaven. Maybe 'morning star' has more than one meaning, just like 'son's of God' does -Isaiah 14:12 This clearly the king of Babylon who is being addressed. but he is being called Lucifer and compared to the Lucifer of the myth. -Rev 9: 1 Satan for sure -Eze 28: King of Tyre, but once again a strong metaphor comparing him to Satan. The potential for Pride is not diminished with privilege or glory, in fact it might make one more succeptable to it. Pride is the chief sin, Pride is a sin in your spirit as well as your heart. Pride opens the door to all other transgression. I agree though it would be hard to imagine being prideful when you had intimate knowledge of and stood in the presence of the Almighty. Edited July 29, 2009 by canuckamuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lekh l'kha Posted July 29, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 830 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2009 I told myself I'm going to leave my computer off.... Lucifer is the ancient Latin name for the morning star, and Phospherous the name for the evening star, which is why the word Lucifer appeared in the Latin Bible and in the King James Bible. But that word "Lucifer" does nor appear in the original Hebrew or anywhere in the Hebrew O.T or Greek N.T, which is why all modern translations have refrained from using the word Lucifer. It's interesting that in the original Hebrew of Job 38: 7, "morning star" appears in the singular, not in the plural (Hebrew: boqer kokab). The words "sang together" are translated from the Hebrew words ranan (to shout for joy) and yachad (in unity). The words translated into English as "sons of God" are also in the singular in the Hebrew: ben elohiym and the word all (all the sons of God) is a translation of the Hebrew word kol which means "the whole" If it were translated word-for-word, the verse could just as well be translated "When the morning star shouted for joy in unity, and with every part made a joyful noise". "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being." (Joh.1:1-3) We are not told anywhere else in scripture that angels were present at the time God created the heavens and the earth, and so it makes me wonder if Job.38: 7 is rightly taken to mean that they were. The ancient nations had their gods attached to the stars: Lucifer (the Latin name of the morning star) was a god. Like the morning star, the king of Babylon attempted rise above all "the stars of God", but like the morning star, he was brought low, and he is a type of the antichrist. Jesus rose above all the stars of God when He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, hence He refers to Himself as "the bright and morning star" in the Revelation. But the Israelites are referred to many times in the scriptures as "the stars of God": God promised Abraham that his seed would become as numerous as the stars of heaven and this promise was repeated to Isaac and to Jacob, and Joseph dreamed a dream in which he saw the sun, the moon and the other eleven stars (Joseph was one of the twelve stars or twelve tribes of Israel) bowing before him. "And those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the sky; and those who turn many to righteousness shall shine as the stars forever and ever." (Dan 12:3) I'm not saying that "sons of God" and "morning stars" in Job 38: 7 does not refer to angels, but neither do I automatically accept that it does. "Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God." (Exo 23:17) "And a day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah. And Satan also came among them." (Job 1:6) "Sons of God" always refers to the saints in the New Testament, and never to angels. In Genesis 3, we have the fall of man. In Genesis 4, we have Cain's murder of Abel + the genealogical line of Cain (the descendants of Cain) In Genesis 5, we have the birth of Seth, and Seth's genealogical line. In Genesis 6, we read that "the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were good. And they took wives for themselves from all whom they chose." (Gen 6:2) In Genesis 7, we read of judgment (the flood). In Genesis 8, we read of a new beginning - the ark resting on Mt Ararat, etc. I'm not sure that the term "sons of God" ever refers to angels in scripture - especially not to fallen angels, since the only other place we find the term "sons of God" in the Old Testament, is in Job, in the verses mentioned above. And in the N.T, the term always refers to saints, not angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted July 29, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2009 If parallelism is being used in thei passage, it is probably a reference to angels. It does not specifiy which angels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted July 29, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 Some very interesting and informative posts, thank you very much What cought my eye was the referance in Job about the morning stars plural in the translation, because as is being pointed out above me here, Lucifer itself means morning star, and Christ is called the bright and morning star I dont think its blasphemous at all however, to envision that at one time Lucifer was indeed an anointed Cherub and actually performing his function for God. There does seem to be the strong implication that he was a powerful angel and most beautiful, in the service of God... UNTIL iniquity was found in him. It actually makes me think and examine myself... how eaily we fall... how easily we let things creep in that we shouldnt Please by all means continue, im finding this very interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 29, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Could this possibly be a referance to Christ AND Lucifer, the anointed cherob, BEFORE his rebellion? Err . . . ummm . . . who or what are you saying Jesus is? And who or what are you saying Lucifer is? Jesus' brother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted July 29, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Could this possibly be a referance to Christ AND Lucifer, the anointed cherob, BEFORE his rebellion? Err . . . ummm . . . who or what are you saying Jesus is? And who or what are you saying Lucifer is? Jesus' brother? LOL no my friend I dont know why people would freak over this quesiton... i mean we do believe the bible that Lucifer was a heavenly anointed Cherub right? We dont need to shy away form the fact that he performed a duty in heaven before he fell in pride and rebelled against God... its what we are told... he was there... had a function... performed his tasks... Both Christ and Lucifer are referred to as morning stars in the scripture, thats not my fault, im just asking the question does this passage pertain to them and dies it indicate they were 'close' before lucifers rebellion I see no reason to believe otherwise... it seems all of heaven would be 'close' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lekh l'kha Posted July 29, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 830 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2009 If parallelism is being used in thei passage, it is probably a reference to angels. It does not specifiy which angels It could be. But I don't know if I would accept that it necessarily does refer to angels: "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell if you have understanding!" (Job 38:4) "When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle upon the face of the deep;... even I was a workman at His side; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him; rejoicing in the world, His earth; and my delight was with the sons of men." (Pro 8:27, 30-31) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being." (Joh 1:1-3) The morning star is singular in the Hebrew of Job 38: 7, and Christ calls Himself the morning star in the Revelation. Not so sure about Job38: 7 referring to angels. Both "morning stars" and "sons of God" are singular in the Hebrew of that verse. It is only because the king of Babylon (a type of the antichrist) exalted himself to the position of a god (and considered himself the incarnation of the gods) that he was satyrically likened to the morning star (Latin: "Lucifer") in Isaiah. The antichrist will try and do the same thing. But Jesus is the real morning star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted July 29, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.20 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2009 Both Christ and Lucifer are referred to as morning stars in the scriptur Where in scripture is Lucifer called the Morning Star, or ever referred to as such? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 29, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 29, 2009 LOL no my friend . . . OK - I just wanted to be sure. Forgive us, but we do consider this board a ministry (rather than just another place for people to gab), and as such we have to be careful about what is promoted here. We've seen members swept away by deceptive doctirnes promoted on the Board before , and we don't want such to happen again. So when new people come on presenting "weird" stuff, we do get on our guard. So please do not be offended by people checking you out, OK? Grace and humility go a long way, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts