How does the churches interpret concubines

[Guest Butero]

shiloh's

Don't waste your energy, Butero. precepts is tryig to use the concbine issue to justify fornication by changing the meaning of "concubine" to mean something else. precepts has sin in his/her life that he/she doesn't want to surrender to the Lord. precepts was not asking serious study question.

You sound like a spoil child.

butero's

When the Bible refers to someone having a concubine, it was not the same as simply having sexual relations outside of marriage. The concubine was similar to a wife in that she belonged to one man.

That is exactly my point. Fornication is casual sex without a relationship, adultery is sex with a married woman.

butero's

It wasn't the same thing as sexual relationships while simply dating.

Ditto!

butero's

The bigger question is what God thinks of polygamy which opens up another can of worms. It is clear in the Old Testament that the practice was never forbidden. In the New Testament, the practice is never outright forbidden either,

And that's a fact.

butero's

but it is clear from the requirements for bishops and deacons that God's best is a marriage between one man and one woman.

Depends on which church you're referring to, some prefer celibacy.

butero's

At the same time, situations could occur, where there is a shortage of men as a result of war where polygamy might be necessary so all single women could have a husband, and I believe this is acceptable in the sight of God. Isaiah 4:1 says, "AND in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach."

butero's

Back to your original question. How does the church explain concubines in the context of fornication? A concubine was looked at as a wife in the sight of God so no fornication was taking place. Is sex outside of marriage a sin? Absolutely.

You're contradicting yourself, you said early concubine were umarried relationships. "The concubine was similar to a wife in that she belonged to one man", is your words.

butero's

The Bible states that those who engage in fornication will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. You didn't ask, but I would imagine the next question would be regarding polygamy. Is it acceptable today? The practice is illegal in this country, and since we are supposed to obey the laws of the land, I believe it would be wrong. I do think it is possible in theory for a church to decide to unite couples through some type of marriage not recognized by the government if they decided to do so, and that might be a way around the law, but I don't believe polygamy is necessary. One wife is enough and there are enough single men and women to go around. That is just my opinion. On the other side of the coin, some people believe that Jesus changed the rules and that polygamy is no longer allowed in the sight of God. While I don't hold to that viewpoint, I feel like the possibility should be considered because I could be wrong, and you will have to give account of your own actions to God on the judgment day. In other words, such actions should not be taken lightly because divorce is clearly wrong, and if you were involved in a polygamous marriage, you would be bound to those women for life.

The point is, there's no law forbidden concubines aslong as it's a relationship. The says if a man divorce his wife for any reason other that fornication/adultery, he that marries her commiteth adultery.

The fact still remains, the churches teaching on marriage doesn't line up with the bible. They're against common law relationships instead of preaching against casual sex. It should be find someone or someones and settle down, cease from the real fornication.

I am not sure I fully understand where you are coming from? The New Testament seems to teach from the example of requirements of Deacons and Bishops that God's best is one man in a marriage with one woman. The Bible doesn't outright forbid polygamy, and does seem to allow for a man to have concubines, but the problem is not with the Christian Church but with the laws of the land. It is not legal in this country for a man to have more than one wife. As far as the church goes, they are coming from the assumption that Jesus changed the laws of marriage rather than clarifying them. If you are looking at things that way, it is understandable why they would teach polygamy is a sin. Fornication is forbidden throughout the New Testament, and those who engage in it will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is what you need to consider. I am giving you my interpretation of what the Bible teaches regarding polygamy based on my method of interpretation. If you or anyone else is going to enter into a polygamous relationship, it would be wise to at least consider the possibility that my method is not correct. What if Jesus not only clarified wrong teachings as I believe was the case, but he actually changed the laws of marriage? Are you sure enough within yourself to take that chance? You shouldn't look at this as a light matter, but should seek the Lord dilligently until you are sure. In addition, if someone does want to be involved in a polygamous relationship in a common law marriage, are they prepared to take on the financial responsibility for more than one wife, and are they truly going to be committed for life to those women without the weight of the law making them legally responsible, or when the going gets tough, will they just split up and go their separate ways? Will they suddenly decide their marriages were a farce when that is the convenient thing to do?

[Guest Butero]

The point is, couples living together are not committing adultery, common law knows this.

Yes and no. Most couples that live together don't look at what they are doing as a marriage. What they are doing is living together so they won't have to be committed and it will be easy to split up down the road if things don't work out. If the couple has joined together in the sight of God, and look at themselves as being in a marriage till death do they part, I can see your point, but then I have another question for you? Why not go ahead and get married? I can understand why someone in polygamy wouldn't because they would be violating the law, but if we are talking about one man and one woman, why the reluctancy to get legally married unless the couple is wanting to avoid a lifetime committment? The laws of divorce and re-marriage would still apply, even in a common law marriage.

I am not going to judge anyone's heart in this matter, but I would ask this question to a couple in a common law marriage. What is the real reason you chose not to have a formal marriage? Look into your own heart and honestly decide if you are committed for life, for better or worse, till death do you part? If you have problems in the future, will you split up and hook up with someone else? Will you look at what you did as something less than really getting a divorce in the sight of God? I don't know if your heart is right Precepts and am not going to say one way or the other. That is why I suggest you look at your own self.

[Openly Curious]

Hi precept,

Reading in this thread has made me very curious to ask, Are you a Mormon by faith? if not do you like their lifesyles? more than one woman at a time instead of choosing only one women for wife, for all time, from death do us part.

oc

[BlindSeeker]

My understanding of why it was alright for the men in the OT to have more than one wife is because of what the relationship of a man and women prophetically represents.

It is my conviction that God created humanity both male and female so they could

[Abusa]

I pray I am not catching the snake by the tail.

What marriage? No where in the bible do we read of any two or three going before a man of God to have a marriage blessed but we read of two going into a tent and getting married, like in this:

When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Isaac married the same way in a tent. So what is marriage?

Secondly in line with the above, I have not read anywhere in the bible that God has condemned polygamy or called it a sin. If it is then why did he tell David this:

2Sa 12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. (KJVR)

2Sa 12:8 and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. (CEV)

2Sa 12:8 And I gave you the house of your master, and your master's wives into your bosom. And I gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if that were too little, then I would have added to you these and those things. (LITV)

So what is marriage and where is polygamy condemned?

If the above have already been dealt with pls do not bother but just refer me to the post. Thank you

[KickingBird]

How do the churches explain concubines in the context of fornication? Is unmarital sex really a sin?

Gen 25:6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

2Sa 5:13 And David took [him] more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David.

Gen 35:22 And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard [it]. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:

1Ch 1:32 Now the sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bare Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. And the sons of Jokshan; Sheba, and Dedan.

1Ch 2:46 And Ephah, Caleb's concubine, bare Haran, and Moza, and Gazez: and Haran begat Gazez.

1Ch 7:14 The sons of Manasseh; Ashriel, whom she bare: ([but] his concubine the Aramitess bare Machir the father of Gilead:

2Ch 11:21 And Rehoboam loved Maachah the daughter of Absalom above all his wives and his concubines: (for he took eighteen wives, and threescore concubines; and begat twenty and eight sons, and threescore daughters.)

Food for thought.

for sure for sure, food for thought. I read somewhere that a missionary once came upon the very problem of concubines when he arrived in a country that actively practiced it.He really struggled with the concept as according to God's will,(I believe) concubinage was not actively encouraged it came about as the will and neccecity of mankind. When members of the village where our missionary friend was ministering came to Christ and accepted salvation many of them had more then one wife and children as well. The country was poor and there were more women then men. The missionary didn't know what to do so he went into prayer about it. After many hours spent in prayer, he got this answer. The current families were to remain intact complete with concubines and children but it stopped there. No other concubinage marriages were allowed. This provided safety and security for both concubines and their children and allowed the families to grow up to become productive members of society. Made sense to me.

[BlindSeeker]

So what is marriage and where is polygamy condemned?

FWIW, I can tell this from Jewish law. If a man takes a woman into his house as his wife and has physical relations with her they are considered married. The church calls that "fornication" which is a word that does not even exist in the original Greek of the NT.

What would you call it?

[BlindSeeker]

So what is marriage and where is polygamy condemned?

FWIW, I can tell this from Jewish law. If a man takes a woman into his house as his wife and has physical relations with her they are considered married. The church calls that "fornication" which is a word that does not even exist in the original Greek of the NT.

What would you call it?

Marriage. And what determines it is intention.

So, how many wives do you feel are permitted by God . . . as many as one intends to sleep with?

[BlindSeeker]

So what is marriage and where is polygamy condemned?

FWIW, I can tell this from Jewish law. If a man takes a woman into his house as his wife and has physical relations with her they are considered married. The church calls that "fornication" which is a word that does not even exist in the original Greek of the NT.

What would you call it?

Marriage. And what determines it is intention.

So, how many wives do you feel are permitted by God . . . as many as one intends to sleep with?

As has been pointed out a number of times there is no condemnation of polygamy in Scripture. But that isn't the main point I am trying to make. The real point is that the church should not condemn two people who live as husband and wife without a legal slip of paper from the government.

What I am trying to find out is do you believe it is ok to have more than one wife and not be in sin.

[Smalcald]

If you are not legally bound to the person you call your husband or wife you are not married either in God's eyes or the eyes of His Church. Now does that mean you MUST have a marriage license? No, not necessarily, but it does mean you must be legally bound in every way a marriage license binds two people together.

The fact is though people live together without a marriage license because they don't want to be married, they play house, a marriage license takes 15 minutes to get and has tremendous benefits, and the question is why wouldn't a Christian want to have one? Why would a Christian want to deny his or her husband or wife the multitude of legal protections and benefits offered in a marriage license? Well the answer is obvious, if you are not sure about the relationship it is much easier to move out than to get a divorce.

The only Christians I think this may not apply to are the radical anti-government types, they refuse to have anything to do with the government, they don't pay taxes, they refuse to get drivers licenses etc, they would be consistent in not getting a marriage license. We may have a couple of those guys on these boards, but outside of that if you are living together without a marriage license you are simply fornicating.

It is not condemning anyone to simply state the facts of a situation. Fornication is no worse than any other sin. I would however point out to people who are shaking up that living together prior to marriage actually has a detrimental affect on marriage you have a higher chance of divorce if you live together prior to marriage. Shaking up arrangement have an even higher rate of breakup than marriages do, and of course it is not good for any children to have parents who are not committed to one another legally.