Guest shiloh357 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Okay first of all, While Elohim is plural, Hebrew has more than one kind of "plural." Elohim is a "plural of intensity." English does not have this kind of plural. In Hebrew, if you wanted to say there was blood on the floor, you would use the term "dahm" for "blood." If you wanted to say there was a lot of "blood" on the floor, you would say "dahmim." In English, it would look like "bloods." Elohim is the same way. Eloheinu does not translate as "Gods." It means the "God of us all." It is the same kind of intensity plural. The passage in Deut. 6:4 has been used to prove the trinity, but does not really stand on its own for that purpose. Deut. 6:4 does not have such teaching in view. That is does not mean that the biblical teaching of the Trinity is diminished. It simply means that this is not the best text to use. Deut. 6:4 is establishing that God is one God over and against the multiplicity of gods in the surrounding pagan cultures. BTW, in some Hebrew siddurim (prayerbooks), this verse is recited as, "Hear O Yisrael! The Lord our God, the Lord alone." The Jewish people see Deut. 6:4 as statement of monotheism. I would also add that the Trinity is something we take on faith and really cannot be "proved" in the strictest sense. It is a mystery for which there is no earthly frame of reference. It is part of inexplicable nature of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2009 Our world is broken up into continents. Our continents sit on tectonic plates. Most people agree that this world once was unified as one land mass and the bible agrees. The bible even says the continents were broken up in the days of Peleg. 7 continents, on seperate tectonic plates, gathered as one supercontinent Ok . . . so there was at one time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2009 Is there not another biblical reference that supports your claim as simply as you say the Shema does? "God is one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2009 So you asked for jewish writings and i gave you at least 7 Please see my clarified request included in the quote below . . . From Zion my chosen www.zionmychosen.com/index_files/Page368.htm "Deut. 6:4 says Hear O Israel Yahweh our Gods are Yahweh a Unity (echad is the Hebrew for one here and it always means compound unity, e.g. the evening and the morning were echad - one day. The entire nation of Israel stood together as echad- one man, etc.) The actual translation in the Hebrew of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 So you asked for jewish writings and i gave you at least 7 Please see my clarified request included in the quote below . . . From Zion my chosen www.zionmychosen.com/index_files/Page368.htm "Deut. 6:4 says Hear O Israel Yahweh our Gods are Yahweh a Unity (echad is the Hebrew for one here and it always means compound unity, e.g. the evening and the morning were echad - one day. The entire nation of Israel stood together as echad- one man, etc.) The actual translation in the Hebrew of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 So you asked for jewish writings and i gave you at least 7 Please see my clarified request included in the quote below . . . From Zion my chosen www.zionmychosen.com/index_files/Page368.htm "Deut. 6:4 says Hear O Israel Yahweh our Gods are Yahweh a Unity (echad is the Hebrew for one here and it always means compound unity, e.g. the evening and the morning were echad - one day. The entire nation of Israel stood together as echad- one man, etc.) The actual translation in the Hebrew of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 Elohim is not a numerical plural, as stated earlier. Neither is Eloheinu. I dont know how you can say this Shiloh... "IM" as a suffex makes ANY hebrew noun plural... I'm assuming you're aware of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Elohim is not a numerical plural, as stated earlier. Neither is Eloheinu. I dont know how you can say this Shiloh... "IM" as a suffex makes ANY hebrew noun plural... I'm assuming you're aware of this? Yes. Here is what I posted earlier: Okay first of all, While Elohim is plural, Hebrew has more than one kind of "plural." Elohim is a "plural of intensity." English does not have this kind of plural. In Hebrew, if you wanted to say there was blood on the floor, you would use the term "dahm" for "blood." If you wanted to say there was a lot of "blood" on the floor, you would say "dahmim." In English, it would look like "bloods." Elohim is the same way. Eloheinu does not translate as "Gods." It means the "God of us all." It is the same kind of intensity plural. The passage in Deut. 6:4 has been used to prove the trinity, but does not really stand on its own for that purpose. Deut. 6:4 does not have such teaching in view. That is does not mean that the biblical teaching of the Trinity is diminished. It simply means that this is not the best text to use. Deut. 6:4 is establishing that God is one God over and against the multiplicity of gods in the surrounding pagan cultures. BTW, in some Hebrew siddurim (prayerbooks), this verse is recited as, "Hear O Yisrael! The Lord our God, the Lord alone." The Jewish people see Deut. 6:4 as statement of monotheism. I would also add that the Trinity is something we take on faith and really cannot be "proved" in the strictest sense. It is a mystery for which there is no earthly frame of reference. It is part of inexplicable nature of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 Okay first of all, While Elohim is plural, Hebrew has more than one kind of "plural." Elohim is a "plural of intensity." English does not have this kind of plural. In Hebrew, if you wanted to say there was blood on the floor, you would use the term "dahm" for "blood." If you wanted to say there was a lot of "blood" on the floor, you would say "dahmim." In English, it would look like "bloods." Elohim is the same way. Eloheinu does not translate as "Gods." It means the "God of us all." It is the same kind of intensity plural. The passage in Deut. 6:4 has been used to prove the trinity, but does not really stand on its own for that purpose. Deut. 6:4 does not have such teaching in view. That is does not mean that the biblical teaching of the Trinity is diminished. It simply means that this is not the best text to use. Deut. 6:4 is establishing that God is one God over and against the multiplicity of gods in the surrounding pagan cultures. BTW, in some Hebrew siddurim (prayerbooks), this verse is recited as, "Hear O Yisrael! The Lord our God, the Lord alone." The Jewish people see Deut. 6:4 as statement of monotheism. I would also add that the Trinity is something we take on faith and really cannot be "proved" in the strictest sense. It is a mystery for which there is no earthly frame of reference. It is part of inexplicable nature of God. Shiloh my apologies for missing this post. I dont know how it happened but it did Actually Shiloh, this isn't how dahmim is used...Dahmim is used to describe the blood of many http://philgoble.com/Documents/0192.pdf |9| If thou shalt be shomer over all these mitzvot to do them, which I command thee today, to love Hashem Eloheicha, and to walk ever in His ways; then shalt thou add three towns more for thee, beside these three; |10| That dahm naki (innocent blood) be not shed in thy land, which Hashem Eloheicha giveth thee for a nachalah, and so dahmim be upon thee. |11| But if any ish hate his neighbor, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and strike him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these towns; http://rabbiarthursegal.blogspot.com/2008_02_12_archive.html "The avenger of blood (doresh dahmim) has remembered them. He has not forgotten the cry of the humble." As Reform Jews, who do not believe in divine reward and punishment, we have the obligation to be our own doresh dahmim, as well as to be careful not to spill blood. This concept applies not just to "murder" but to other forms of spilling blood. We spill blood when we do character assassination with loshan ha ra (gossip). We spill blood when we destroy another's self esteem or dignity. One does not have to be mortally wounded to suffer irreparable damage. As we will learn in future parashot, our mouths can destroy lives. We can run over others' feelings in our race for our own personal success. When we act cruelly to others and our children and grandchildren see it, we are killing our own offspring. No offence intended Shiloh my friend, There is no "plural of intensity" in the Hebrew language... and "dahmim" simply means the blood of many people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Actually Shiloh, this isn't how dahmim is used...Dahmim is used to describe the blood of many I speak and read Hebrew and have been doing so for quite a while and I know what I am talking about. There is no "plural of intensity" in the Hebrew language... and "dahmim" simply means the blood of many peopleYes there. Some may use a different term, but the fact remains that it is a nonnumeric plural. Words like Rachamim, Elohim and Shamayim are all the same way. They are nonnumeric plurals and denote either intensity or greatness. In fact that is how those words always appear in Hebrew. Rachamim (mercy) is always in the plural sense as Shamayim (heaven). I have been reading and studying Hebrew for over 15 years, and I know of what speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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