The Shema and the Trinity

[Guest shiloh357]

From a Christian Hebrew:http://kenkleintv.com/blog/?p=83

QUOTE

Within Hebrew grammar when God speaks of Himself, he often uses the plural pronoun:

Gen 1:26-

[WolfBitn]

So Shiloh, tell me... you do believe in the Trinity i assume... HOW is the TRinity a Trinity if God is not plural? Why is it a surprise to anyone that God would refer to Himself in the plural if we are to believe He is a trinity? Why would this scare someone? Are we afraid people will say we worship more than one God?

The thing is, Wolfbtn, I understand the doctrine of the Trinity AND I know the Hebrew. The Trinity refers to God's personage, not His essence or being, which is why He can be ONE God. And yes, if we were to subscribe to your view, it would come across as worshpping three gods. That is why it is wrong.

Then why are we afraid to say our Eternal One is Gods who are ONE eternal one? Isnt this the very thing we believe?

No, it is not the very thing we believe. Because to say "our Eternal One is Gods who are one" is not what the Bible teaches, is not supported by Hebrew and is sloppy theology to boot. He is ONE God in three persons.

Ok lets reason out your theory Shiloh

Do you believe Jesus is an individual? Do you believe He is God?

Do you believe the Father is an individual? Do you believe He is God?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is an individual? Do you believe HE is God?

You are aware that when speaking of other GODS in the ot, the plural Elohim is also used. How do you know this isnt 'nonnumerical intensity'? ( nice phrase you made up here by the way lol)

^^^ please answer these for me

[Guest shiloh357]

Ok lets reason out your theory Shiloh

It's not my theory; it is biblical truth and nothing less. The fact that you cannot accept the truth does not make it a "theory."

Do you believe Jesus is an individual? Do you believe He is God?

Do you believe the Father is an individual? Do you believe He is God?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is an individual? Do you believe HE is God?

I believe that Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. I do NOT believe they are indiviual "gods." Jesus is not an individual god separate from the Father. All three are God, but are three persons within one God. That is how the Bible presents them. That is the simple truth.

You are aware that when speaking of other GODS in the ot, the plural Elohim is also used. How do you know this isnt 'nonnumerical intensity'?

I answered that already, but since you didn't bother READ, I will repost it for your convenience.

The grammatical construct is different when the word elohim is used to refer to false gods. When Elohim is used to refer to the one true God, the accompanying verbs are singular. When elohim is used in reference to false gods, the accompanying verbs are plural. In Gen. 1:1 for example, the verb created is singular and this necessary in order to show that He who did the creating did so alone. It is necessary to have singular verbs wth Elohim in Hebrew because unlike English, Hebrew has no lower case letters and the singular verb distinquishes Elohm from elohim; it tells the Hebrew reader that we are talking about the one true God.

( nice phrase you made up here by the way lol)

I didn't make it up and I provided support from a Jewish source.

[WolfBitn]

Ok lets reason out your theory Shiloh

It's not my theory; it is biblical truth and nothing less. The fact that you cannot accept the truth does not make it a "theory."

Of COURSE its a theory... you even made up the phrases to describe it... you even admit the Hebrew grammer NEVER refers to a 'plural intensity'... and not only is it a theory, it goes against all common sence to use a plural in EVERYTHING EXCEPT God... youre just scared of it in my opinion

Do you believe Jesus is an individual? Do you believe He is God?

Do you believe the Father is an individual? Do you believe He is God?

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is an individual? Do you believe HE is God?

I believe that Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. I do NOT believe they are indiviual "gods." Jesus is not an individual god separate from the Father. All three are God, but are three persons within one God. That is how the Bible presents them. That is the simple truth.

So then you dont believe Jesus is seperate and individual form the Father?

You are aware that when speaking of other GODS in the ot, the plural Elohim is also used. How do you know this isnt 'nonnumerical intensity'?

I answered that already, but since you didn't bother READ, I will repost it for your convenience.

Well let me post for our convenience that when referring to 'other gods' Elohim is ALWAYS used in the plural... when referring to judges its ALWAYS used in the plural, and both times it MEANS a plural.

The fact is you have to go throguh all kind of gymnastics, even making up phrases that dont exist to try to make a point... just to try to say a plural is ALWAYS a plural except when it comes to God

The grammatical construct is different when the word elohim is used to refer to false gods. When Elohim is used to refer to the one true God, the accompanying verbs are singular. When elohim is used in reference to false gods, the accompanying verbs are plural. In Gen. 1:1 for example, the verb created is singular and this necessary in order to show that He who did the creating did so alone. It is necessary to have singular verbs wth Elohim in Hebrew because unlike English, Hebrew has no lower case letters and the singular verb distinquishes Elohm from elohim; it tells the Hebrew reader that we are talking about the one true God.

( nice phrase you made up here by the way lol)

I didn't make it up and I provided support from a Jewish source.

o you did too make it up... you cant show me a source from hebrews using the term 'plural intensity' lol stop please lol

[Guest shiloh357]

Of COURSE its a theory... you even made up the phrases to describe it... you even admit the Hebrew grammer NEVER refers to a 'plural intensity'... and not only is it a theory, it goes against all common sence to use a plural in EVERYTHING EXCEPT God... youre just scared of it in my opinion

I did not admit anything about Hebrew grammar, Neither did I claim to make anything up. I simply used my version of the phrase. I called it a plural intensity. Others call it a plural of majesty or plural of greatness. Its nothing more than different ways of expressing the same concept, AND provided you with a source from a standard Jewish source, which you have up to this point avoided acknowledging.

Furthermore, I did not say that everything but God is plural. I said that in Hebrew, in there are two kinds of plurals. There are other pluralwords in Hebrew besides God that are not numerical plurals and I provided examples. You don't know beans about Hebrew beyond what you can copy and paste from someone else's website, and are not in a position to challenge me.

BTW I am not afraid your opinion. You do not pose any threat to sound, Christian theology. Your "opinion" is impotent and biblically flawed.

So then you dont believe Jesus is seperate and individual form the Father?

Jesus is a separate, distinct and individual person from the Father, but he is not not a separate God.

Well let me post for our convenience that when referring to 'other gods' Elohim is ALWAYS used in the plural... when referring to judges its ALWAYS used in the plural, and both times it MEANS a plural.

I never said it didn't. In those cases it is a numerical plural. But when applied to God Himself, it is not a numerical plural.

The fact is you have to go throguh all kind of gymnastics, even making up phrases that dont exist to try to make a point... just to try to say a plural is ALWAYS a plural except when it comes to God

It is not gymnastics. I am explaining Hebrew grammar to you and how the language works. The verbs distinguish between "gods" and "God." It really is very, very simple, Wolf.

o you did too make it up... you cant show me a source from hebrews using the term 'plural intensity' lol stop please lol

No, I showed you from the Jewish encyclopedia and it said exactly what I have told you.

I realize your pride won't make room for it, but you really don't know what you are talking about. You are not going to accomplish anything but make yourself look foolish if you keep trying resist the truth.

[nebula]

My body is me

My soul is me

My spirit is me

The Father is God

The Son is God

The Spirit is God

See, wasn't that simple?

[WolfBitn]

So then you dont believe Jesus is seperate and individual form the Father?

Jesus is a separate, distinct and individual person from the Father, but he is not not a separate God.

So Jesus is a seperate individual, and not the Father... The Holy Spirit is a seperate and distinct person.. we have 3 persons who are all God, and yet these 3 Gods are one eternal one... get your shema straight... it doesnt say the 3 eternal ones are God, it says the 3 Gods are ONE ETERNAL ONE

Well let me post for our convenience that when referring to 'other gods' Elohim is ALWAYS used in the plural... when referring to judges its ALWAYS used in the plural, and both times it MEANS a plural.

I never said it didn't. In those cases it is a numerical plural. But when applied to God Himself, it is not a numerical plural.

So you just want to change the rules of grammer for one word... because you just cant bring yourself to believe it as its written... thats cool

The fact is you have to go throguh all kind of gymnastics, even making up phrases that dont exist to try to make a point... just to try to say a plural is ALWAYS a plural except when it comes to God

It is not gymnastics. I am explaining Hebrew grammar to you and how the language works. The verbs distinguish between "gods" and "God." It really is very, very simple, Wolf.

Yes its that simple... and in this case echad united 3 into one unit according to Hebrew grammer

o you did too make it up... you cant show me a source from hebrews using the term 'plural intensity' lol stop please lol

No, I showed you from the Jewish encyclopedia and it said exactly what I have told you.

I realize your pride won't make room for it, but you really don't know what you are talking about. You are not going to accomplish anything but make yourself look foolish if you keep trying resist the truth.

Shiloh... tell me who taught you Hebrew

[traveller]

This thread is beginning to get personal tones. I suggest that not happen.

[BlindSeeker]

So Jesus is a seperate individual, and not the Father... The Holy Spirit is a seperate and distinct person.. we have 3 persons who are all God, and yet these 3 Gods are one eternal one... get your shema straight... it doesnt say the 3 eternal ones are God, it says the 3 Gods are ONE ETERNAL ONE

I suggest you get your version of the Shema correct . . . it say nothing about "eternal" or "three gods."

Your version of the Trinity is nothing more than polytheism and is flat out wrong and contrary to the truth of the scriptures.

While Shiloh and I do not agree fully on this subject I can thus far say amen to his words as he has endeavor to patiently reason this with you.

[Dougmo60]

Jesus is the Word of God we have the Bible which is the Word or (Jesus) this is why it is so important for us to study the Word. In the trinty of God we have The Father (God) The Son (Word of God) and The Spirit (Gods connection with man) and these three are one God. (1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.)

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.