can salvation be lost?

[humbleseeker]

I have backslid, and have known people to fall back into sin. Although no one I know that has done that has denied Christ with there mouth. There actions yes. I think there is a eternal seed planted in a man if he truly accepts Christ. I know that God knows who he has chosen and reading the bible, you can see so many hardcases that make you think a little bit better about yourself. God will never leave you or forsake you, I believe that is true when we deny Christ if in word or deed, God can not deny himself.

[kross]

I specifcally asked for a biblical example of a person who decided they no longer wanted to be a Christian. I wanted someone to produce an example of a person who basically said, "I no longer want Christ and have decided to discard my faith."

Where in the Scriptures do you find a person going up to receive Christ at an altar call? Nowhere. Therefore altar calls are unbiblical.

For something to be unbiblical it would need to be forbidden by scripture. Altar calls are not unbibical. The practice is not metioned by scripture, so it would be considered abiblical (not forbidden or condoned). Many things we do are abiblical (like having bathrooms in our churches, passing offering plates etc).

When JESUS was present, HE was the alter.

When Peter and the others stood on the platform on the day of Pentacost, it was an alter. Sanctified by the word of GOD spoken by the HOLY SPIRIT.

The scriptures do not show us the operation of the early churches at all. For one to think they did not bring people there who heard the gospel and made a confession of faith in that place is an assumption that is not even practical.

[kross]

I have backslid, and have known people to fall back into sin. Although no one I know that has done that has denied Christ with there mouth. There actions yes. I think there is a eternal seed planted in a man if he truly accepts Christ. I know that God knows who he has chosen and reading the bible, you can see so many hardcases that make you think a little bit better about yourself. God will never leave you or forsake you, I believe that is true when we deny Christ if in word or deed, God can not deny himself.

And you should hold to that. GOD is faithful when we are faithless.

[kross]

"Father, give me my inheritance." And he went and squandered his inheritance.

What inheritance does a Christian have?

How can a Christian squander that inheritance?

First of all, JESUS is not talking to Christians. HE is talking to those under the law.

Second of all, the point is that we all have wondered away from the FATHER and when we come to our right minds and return to HIM, HE is there to meet us.

We all go out into the world to get our "inheritance" or due as it is. When we have destroyed ourselves with sin, GOD is there waiting for our return.

This is not a parable about a Christians leaving GOD and then coming back, although, if you want to see it that way, then you need to see that GOD eventually returned the young man to his right mind and gracefully braught him home.

Thus, GOD will never let one of HIS children die in there sins but will bring them home again.

HIS PEACE

[OneLight]

Yes, you have made this very clear that this is how you believe. I am not of the same belief. I do not see anywhere in scripture where free will is removed when one accepts Christ. Your admission that there could never see why anyone would ever think of changing their mind is the basics of your belief. Even though I have to agree that I, in my walk, could ever think of a reason why I would turn from Christ, I am not so arrogant to assume that I never will. I have to keep Him first and foremost in my life and not replace myself on the throne of my heart. That is something we all have to do in every decision we make, is it not?

Allow me to ask you this. If salvation was always ensured to a believer, why would Paul write to the Philippians telling them that they are to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If what you say is true, there would be no cause to fear nor tremble, but to just realize that they are humans and will make mistakes. There has to be a reason why this phrase is spoken of more then once in scripture.

What you call to "arrogant to assume i never will" I call trusting JESUS enough to know HE will never allow it. I put my faith and trust in JEUS, not in myself. I do not feel you can trust JESUS too much. Some think you can.

The same reason he told the Corinthians to make their "Calling and election sure". Becasue the fear of GOD is the beginning, becasue not working out your salvation with fear and trembling might lead one to think they are saved when they are not.

Why does Paul state we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT until the day of redemption? Why does Paul state that the ones who are THe Called are the ones who were predestined to it? And then say they were also justified and glorified? And then state that nothing can separate them from the love of GOD that they have in CHRIST JESUS?

As you know, we can toss scriptures back and forth and neaither one of us will believe the other plus this thread was not established to be a WHO CHOSE WHO debate. (although that is fundamental as to whether the one doing the choosing can or will unchoose)

And, just for the record, I am more of the belief that the will is not free until GOD sets it free. "Those whom the SON sets free are free indeed" The very principle of which is that a person is a captive that needs to be set free in the first place. So, I do not believe one looses "Free Will" at salvation. I believe one gains it.

I have no disagreement with the belief that when one remains in Christ that they are sealed, protected, and secure. Where we differ is that I believe that we continue to have a free will and if we, through free will, decide not to continue in Him, and leave, that they will forfeit their salvation and you do not.

[south]

Warning Against Antichrists

18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[d] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 15 2009, 04:08 PM)

What does that have to do with my request. I asked for ONE biblical example of a person who voluntarily gave up his/her Christian faith. Obviously, you are having some reading comprehension issues, as I did not say anything about someone not having faith that the Bible says has faith. If you can't read, then don't respond. I am tired of you assigning things to me that I did not say. Is that clear, or do I need to type a little slower for you???

Resorting to abusive personal attacks again I see. Are you married or have kids, please tell me no?

I am tired of having my remarks misrepresented and being accused of saying things I have not said. I have clarified and reclarified the same things over and over and have attempted to make my as clear as possible, only to have Smalcald continue to reassign the same lies to my remarks. Either he cannot read, or his deliberately misrepresenting my views, and frankly, it is getting old.

Just to respond to your request:

The best example is the prodigal son, it gives you very detailed information about losing your salvation and regaining your salvation.

We all should know that story. It was the son's choice to leave his father and the father did not force him to stay, neither did his father force him to return. It was the free will of the son who decided to leave and return. A key scripture in the story says that while the son was away from the Father, he was dead.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to celebrate.

Luk 15:32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.'"

We know that his son was not really dead physically but spiritually and cut off from the blessing and promises while separated from his father. We also know from verse 24 that his son was alive before he left and regained his life when he returned. I would say that contradicts the OSAS doctrine.

Pure nonsnse.

1. This is parable. My request pertains a real, living CHRISTIAN in the NT who decided that He no longer wanted to saved.

In this parable, the "son" did not "lose" his salvation. The parable does not indicate that the Father has disowned Him, or that he was no longer his son. You are completely missing the point of the parable. For this to support your case, you would have to show that the son was no longer a son to the father. That is not the case.

And BTW, there is no such doctrine as OSAS. It is called "Eternal Security." It would help if people actually knew or understood what they are trying to refute before thinking they are comptetent to respond to it.

You too, have failed to fulfill my request.

[Guest shiloh357]

Where in the Scriptures do you find a person going up to receive Christ at an altar call? Nowhere. Therefore altar calls are unbiblical.

No, they are not unbiblical. If they contradicted or violated Scripture, you would have a point. The "altar call" is not for God's benefit, but for the benefit of the person being saved. The altar call is a point of contact. It gives a point of reference for the believer, and as a result, it aids in providing assurance. When you go up to the altar, you remember it. Its like remembering when you went up to receive your college diploma or high school diploma. It serves as a marker in your mind.

People get saved in cars, on planes, in the middle of a field. The altar call is not necessary, but neither does violate any doctrine of Scripture.

Where in Scripture do you hear an Apostle tell someone "You must accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour"? Nowhere. Therefore, that one is unbiblical, as well.

The Bible does not use that exact phraseology, but the concept is quite alive in Scripture. In the New Testament, we have many cases where people were brought to a place where they could choose to reject or accept Christ. Having said that, I would again point out that "accepting Christ as Savior" does not violate Scripture, nor contradict with any known doctrine, so you are really trying to make an issue out of an nonissue.

Of course, you will have a temper tantrum now that your own conditions must be met by yourself, but such is the way with some people.

My beliefs meet every condition I demand of others. I don't ask of anyone what I don't ask of myself. The simple fact remains that neither you nor anyone else has been able to provide one biblical example from the NT of a person voluntarily and purposefully deciding that they no longer want to be a Christian.

[Smalcald]

Lies?

I was simply trying to show in scripture that there are examples of people who had faith who later did not have faith and this was according to scripture.

What you don't like Professor Shiloh is when people make cogent biblical arguments that happen to contradict your doctrine, well tough you should probably get used to it.

[kross]

Yes, you have made this very clear that this is how you believe. I am not of the same belief. I do not see anywhere in scripture where free will is removed when one accepts Christ. Your admission that there could never see why anyone would ever think of changing their mind is the basics of your belief. Even though I have to agree that I, in my walk, could ever think of a reason why I would turn from Christ, I am not so arrogant to assume that I never will. I have to keep Him first and foremost in my life and not replace myself on the throne of my heart. That is something we all have to do in every decision we make, is it not?

Allow me to ask you this. If salvation was always ensured to a believer, why would Paul write to the Philippians telling them that they are to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If what you say is true, there would be no cause to fear nor tremble, but to just realize that they are humans and will make mistakes. There has to be a reason why this phrase is spoken of more then once in scripture.

What you call to "arrogant to assume i never will" I call trusting JESUS enough to know HE will never allow it. I put my faith and trust in JEUS, not in myself. I do not feel you can trust JESUS too much. Some think you can.

The same reason he told the Corinthians to make their "Calling and election sure". Becasue the fear of GOD is the beginning, becasue not working out your salvation with fear and trembling might lead one to think they are saved when they are not.

Why does Paul state we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT until the day of redemption? Why does Paul state that the ones who are THe Called are the ones who were predestined to it? And then say they were also justified and glorified? And then state that nothing can separate them from the love of GOD that they have in CHRIST JESUS?

As you know, we can toss scriptures back and forth and neaither one of us will believe the other plus this thread was not established to be a WHO CHOSE WHO debate. (although that is fundamental as to whether the one doing the choosing can or will unchoose)

And, just for the record, I am more of the belief that the will is not free until GOD sets it free. "Those whom the SON sets free are free indeed" The very principle of which is that a person is a captive that needs to be set free in the first place. So, I do not believe one looses "Free Will" at salvation. I believe one gains it.

I have no disagreement with the belief that when one remains in Christ that they are sealed, protected, and secure. Where we differ is that I believe that we continue to have a free will and if we, through free will, decide not to continue in Him, and leave, that they will forfeit their salvation and you do not.

So, if a Christian were to ask GOD to keep him from falling and present him blameless, if he were to ask GOD not to let him stray from HIS path, you think GOD would say no? GOD would not honor this prayer with a yes?

"For we know that all things work together for the good of those who lov e GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose" doesn't mean that GOD is working all things for the eternal good of those who love HIM? This would include working all things so they continue to love HIM, since that is part of "ALL things"