Guest shiloh357 Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Lies? I was simply trying to show in scripture that there are examples of people who had faith who later did not have faith and this was according to scripture. What you don't like Professor Shiloh is when people make cogent biblical arguments that happen to contradict your doctrine, well tough you should probably get used to it. Yeah, you were trying to show me examples of people who had faith and did not have it later. That is not what I was asking for. I specifically asked for ANYONE to show me ONE biblical example of a NT Christian who decided they no longer wanted to remain a Christian and completely disowned their faith on purpose. No one, including you can provide an example. My request stemmed from the arguement that Christians walk away from their faith, and I asked for a biblical example of a Christian who did that. BTW, I have no problem with people making cogent arguments that contradict me. But you have yet to do that. What I don't like is when people like you assign things to me that I have not said or even implied. What I hate is when people do not read my statements but rather try to argue with me over some twisted conception they have in their head about what I said. Which is why I said, either respond to what I have actually said or just stop responding to me if that is just to herculean of a task for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted October 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,271 Content Per Day: 4.91 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted October 17, 2009 That my friend, is just as much your fault (if not more so), as it is your youth pastor. You failed to read and understand your Bible. Your pastor failed to impress upon you (or you failed to hear) what salvation really means, and what is required of you in order to know for sure that you are saved. Your absolutely right it was just as much my fault as it was the church that taught it.. Its my fault for not seeking out the truth and believing whatever my church/Pastor feed me rather then finding out what the bible says...but what do you expect from a young teenager and an unbeliever at the time. Later on in life I realized that I was being lied to and I left and sought out church's and believers who didn't fall for such OSAS lies. The whole time that I was going to these OSAS church, I knew down in my heart that there was something wrong with this doctrine and I knew that it didn't jive with what Jesus taught. So, no one in your church or youth group ever told you to read and study the Word daily? Or did you just ignore it. I'm not trying to make this personal with you Jedi, but to make the point that if one stays in the Word, and compares what they are taught against the Word, the Holy Spirit ensures that one is not deceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted October 17, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Exactly as I said it. If someone did not believe, why would they be asking a God that they do not believe in. If a person did believe, then they would never turn from Him. I thought that was obvious enough? To answer your question, if the answer was the only means left for the person to remain in Him, then yes. Have you ever asked for something and not receive it, maybe due to a lesson you yet had not learned? God does not always answer our prayers as we want Him to. He answers them according to His will. I believe GOD says no to prayer all the time. If granting that prayer would be bad for the one praying. I do not believe GOD says no to a prayer that is what would be best in the eternal life of the believer. That would kinda put an end to the whole idea of trusting GOD's judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2009 Exactly as I said it. If someone did not believe, why would they be asking a God that they do not believe in. If a person did believe, then they would never turn from Him. I thought that was obvious enough? To answer your question, if the answer was the only means left for the person to remain in Him, then yes. Have you ever asked for something and not receive it, maybe due to a lesson you yet had not learned? God does not always answer our prayers as we want Him to. He answers them according to His will. I believe GOD says no to prayer all the time. If granting that prayer would be bad for the one praying. I do not believe GOD says no to a prayer that is what would be best in the eternal life of the believer. That would kinda put an end to the whole idea of trusting GOD's judgement. ... it would indeed! The problem with answers to prayer is that we are thinking with our own understanding and not His. There have been times when I have asked for something that scripture tells me I should have, but God held back. It was not until later that I understood that there was something that I first had to learn in order to understand the meaning of what I was asking for. His ways are not our ways, His thought are not our thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I specifically asked for ANYONE to show me ONE biblical example of a NT Christian who decided they no longer wanted to remain a Christian and completely disowned their faith on purpose. But I think that is our disagreement. The people that we have shown, Simon for one, did disown their faith on purpose. Consider the alternative, are you claiming that Christ left Simon, if that were the case then we can indeed "lose" our faith and have it be totally out of our free will, and this I do disagree with as I think scripture is clear that Christ will never walk away from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I specifically asked for ANYONE to show me ONE biblical example of a NT Christian who decided they no longer wanted to remain a Christian and completely disowned their faith on purpose. But I think that is our disagreement. The people that we have shown, Simon for one, did disown their faith on purpose. Simon Magnus is not recorded as saying, "I no longer want to be Christian." If you have documentation to show otherwise provide it. Simon was simply decieved and misguided. He was like many immature believers who still have baggage from their previous sinful life that they need to deal with. Consider the alternative, are you claiming that Christ left Simon, if that were the case then we can indeed "lose" our faith and have it be totally out of our free will, and this I do disagree with as I think scripture is clear that Christ will never walk away from us. I never made the case that Jesus walked away from Simon. But there is no evidence that Simon no longer wanted to be a Christian. All we have record of is that Simon was severely rebuked by Peter. The Bible does not say Simon was no longer a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Dr. Michael Brown has the best answer I've ever heard to this question. I can't quote exactly but basically he says that God is not bound to honor a rebellious and arrogant person. If someone is truly a believer, then their life's fruit can not be in opposition to the Lord for longer than a very short season of ignorance precluding repentance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 18, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I specifically asked for ANYONE to show me ONE biblical example of a NT Christian who decided they no longer wanted to remain a Christian and completely disowned their faith on purpose. But I think that is our disagreement. The people that we have shown, Simon for one, did disown their faith on purpose. Simon Magnus is not recorded as saying, "I no longer want to be Christian." If you have documentation to show otherwise provide it. Simon was simply decieved and misguided. He was like many immature believers who still have baggage from their previous sinful life that they need to deal with. Consider the alternative, are you claiming that Christ left Simon, if that were the case then we can indeed "lose" our faith and have it be totally out of our free will, and this I do disagree with as I think scripture is clear that Christ will never walk away from us. I never made the case that Jesus walked away from Simon. But there is no evidence that Simon no longer wanted to be a Christian. All we have record of is that Simon was severely rebuked by Peter. The Bible does not say Simon was no longer a Christian. Well that is the OSAS doctrine, Simon is fine, he is a Christian. You are correct the bible does not say he is no longer a Christian, he asks Peter to pray for him as Peter told him that he would perish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted October 18, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2009 That my friend, is just as much your fault (if not more so), as it is your youth pastor. You failed to read and understand your Bible. Your pastor failed to impress upon you (or you failed to hear) what salvation really means, and what is required of you in order to know for sure that you are saved. Your absolutely right it was just as much my fault as it was the church that taught it.. Its my fault for not seeking out the truth and believing whatever my church/Pastor feed me rather then finding out what the bible says...but what do you expect from a young teenager and an unbeliever at the time. Later on in life I realized that I was being lied to and I left and sought out church's and believers who didn't fall for such OSAS lies. The whole time that I was going to these OSAS church, I knew down in my heart that there was something wrong with this doctrine and I knew that it didn't jive with what Jesus taught. So, no one in your church or youth group ever told you to read and study the Word daily? Or did you just ignore it. I'm not trying to make this personal with you Jedi, but to make the point that if one stays in the Word, and compares what they are taught against the Word, the Holy Spirit ensures that one is not deceived. hmmm....did you even read my post? How could I've ignored it...if I realized it and left. How do you know it wasn't the Holy Spirit showing me the truth? The Holy Spirit will guide you into truth, but he will not force feed you the truth. You can choose to follow the Holy Spirits guidance or ignore it as many do. Yes it did take a few years for me to realize that it was not inline with God's Word. I was around 18 when I stopped going to OSAS churches. Its was a little hard to break away from that teaching being that I was raised to believe that by my parents, church, and my grandfather who was the pastor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted October 18, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2009 Dr. Michael Brown has the best answer I've ever heard to this question. I can't quote exactly but basically he says that God is not bound to honor a rebellious and arrogant person. If someone is truly a believer, then their life's fruit can not be in opposition to the Lord for longer than a very short season of ignorance precluding repentance. Yeah I really like Michael Brown. I used to go this Church down in Florida. I love his book called "How saved are we?" http://askdrbrown.org/resources/store?page...p;category_id=6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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