can salvation be lost?

[evetsegap]

i believe scripture is very clear that while one can't "lose" their salvation, they can certainly forfeit it. the difference is that to lose salvation is involuntary... to forfeit one's own salvation takes an act of will... and a stubborn act of will because God doesn't let ya throw His gifts away so easily.

yes, there are scriptures that seem to support both doctrines. but in order to make the OSAS doctrine work, one has to totally disregard all the scriptures that indicate otherwise. to make the NON-osas doctrine work, all you have to do is acknowledge the difference between losing and forfeiting.

and that is the last i will say on this subject, because these threads never stay civil for long.

This has always been my opinion. And well stated as well.

[Smalcald]

We are not talking about "falling" Arther, we all fall, all believers fall and repent and get back up and continue the walk.

We are talking about someone who curses Christ, who says it is ALL a bunch of bunk, I could care less, that says the whole thing is a big fairy tale that you guys made up becuase you are afraid of death, that is who we are speaking of, someone who has rejected faith in total. These types of people exist we have all met them, some of the biggest public athiests today are ex-Christians.

Of course the answer is they were never saved in the first place, okay maybe so, maybe not, it does not really matter they are not saved now.

Can they still repent?

Of course, as long as they draw breath.

[evetsegap]

We are not talking about "falling" Arther, we all fall, all believers fall and repent and get back up and continue the walk.

We are talking about someone who curses Christ, who says it is ALL a bunch of bunk, I could care less, that says the whole thing is a big fairy tale that you guys made up becuase you are afraid of death, that is who we are speaking of, someone who has rejected faith in total. These types of people exist we have all met them, some of the biggest public athiests today are ex-Christians.

Of course the answer is they were never saved in the first place, okay maybe so, maybe not, it does not really matter they are not saved now.

Can they still repent?

Of course, as long as they draw breath.

Yep. We see that throughout Israel's history. All the prophets begged Israel and Judah to repent to the end.

[OneLight]

Pro-"re-lost" individuals fail miserably to deal with the Apostle Paul's school-room obvious statementthat born-again Christians are "in Christ" and that Christ is "in the Father"! If we're "in Christ" and if Christ is "in the Father", that's the most secure place in the universe! If Christ has us "in Him" and if Christ Himself is "in the Father", the fact is that both the One doing the holding & the one being secured are indeed both lost if one is "re-sent" to hell. Plainly if one is holding another person securely & within Himself on the edge of a worldly, sin-filled precipice, and if one falls, naturally both go down! It's impossible to get away from the Apostle's clear-cut assertion that born-again Christians are secured "in Christ" and that Christ Himself is secured "in His Father." Jesus Himself states most succinctly that when He is holding us, "no man can pluck us out of His hand". In fact, the Greek is a triple negative in John Chapter Ten: "shall never, never never pluck us out of His hand." Further, we're assured that Christ is able to keep us from falling!" I humbly bow to these glorious divine assurances. Why don't you?

Because I don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. Explain to me how you understand Hebrews 6:4-6.

[Fez]

OneLight, there are so many counter arguements to that passage of scripture?

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,

1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

We all know that people make professions of faith and then repudiate them. We know people backslide. We know that Christians can and do commit gross sins. And I believe that although Christains can fall seriously and radically, that they cannot fall totally and finally except if committing the unpardonable sin. Look at David for instance, adultery, first degree murder, but his subsequent repentance was as deep as his sin. He was restored.

As to Hebrews, were these people tares amongst the wheat? There are three catorgories of people we must look at here. Believers, unblievers in the church, and unbelievers outside the church. Hebrews draws several parallels with OT Israel, especially with those in the camp which were apsotates. Who were the people in Hebrews, what were their attributes?

[OneLight]

OneLight, there are so many counter arguements to that passage of scripture?

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,

1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

We all know that people make professions of faith and then repudiate them. We know people backslide. We know that Christians can and do commit gross sins. And I believe that although Christains can fall seriously and radically, that they cannot fall totally and finally except if committing the unpardonable sin. Look at David for instance, adultery, first degree murder, but his subsequent repentance was as deep as his sin. He was restored.

As to Hebrews, were these people tares amongst the wheat? There are three catorgories of people we must look at here. Believers, unblievers in the church, and unbelievers outside the church. Hebrews draws several parallels with OT Israel, especially with those in the camp which were apsotates. Who were the people in Hebrews, what were their attributes?

Why is it why I ask people to tell me their understanding, they just counter with scripture and avoid giving their understanding?

Yes, we could play scriptural chess all day long, I'm sure.

[leoxiii]

Truth cannot contradict truth.

Ergo, one verse of Scripture cannot contradict another verse of Scripture.

A synthesis must be found.

[evetsegap]

Not a once saved always saved person either.

Why did Paul write, "1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

What about those who do not hold firmly to the word?

Jesus said, "Matthew 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

What about those who do not stand firm?

"James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?"

What about those whose faith does not produce good deeds?

It's those scriptures that make me agree with Lady C

i believe scripture is very clear that while one can't "lose" their salvation, they can certainly forfeit it. the difference is that to lose salvation is involuntary... to forfeit one's own salvation takes an act of will... and a stubborn act of will because God doesn't let ya throw His gifts away so easily.

yes, there are scriptures that seem to support both doctrines. but in order to make the OSAS doctrine work, one has to totally disregard all the scriptures that indicate otherwise. to make the NON-osas doctrine work, all you have to do is acknowledge the difference between losing and forfeiting.

[jpd78]

My name may say new newbie, but I am not, you guys are missing a key word to jesus words john 10:27 "my sheep hear my voice" The one who continues on consistently hears his voice, This is no hard matter, how about the parable of the sower they recieve word with joy and then the cares of this world, they fall away. meaning they were saved as we can't recieve the word without the spirit, then they fell away or paul when he says he can be disqualified. How hard is that. If jesus said he constantly hears our voice, then this would be a hard matter. think abou it. beside this once saved always saved doctorine is false security, being a backslider I know its not god who forsakes us, we forsake him as knowing backsliding is very dangerous, for my own conscience sake, this is no thing to take lightly, To know freedom and turn your back on it for a 10 month period the guilt is enormous and one thing I also felt to for a little while I was trying to make it up by works, this would be easy to do for a backslider to. all these things are hard for our conscience and condemning ourselves. If I were to do it again, I am 100% sure I would be in a place where I can't come back. To know your going to heaven with jesus for eternity, to turn your back on that. The greatest gift in the history of the world. What human being can get over that. for our own conscience sake once again.

[jpd78]

My name may say new newbie, but I am not, you guys are missing a key word to jesus words john 10:27 "my sheep hear my voice" The one who continues on consistently hears his voice, This is no hard matter, how about the parable of the sower they recieve word with joy and then the cares of this world, they fall away. meaning they were saved as we can't recieve the word without the spirit, then they fell away or paul when he says he can be disqualified. How hard is that. If jesus said he constantly hears our voice, then this would be a hard matter. think abou it. beside this once saved always saved doctorine is false security, being a backslider I know its not god who forsakes us, we forsake him as knowing backsliding is very dangerous, for my own conscience sake, this is no thing to take lightly, To know freedom and turn your back on it for a 10 month period the guilt is enormous and one thing I also felt to for a little while I was trying to make it up by works, this would be easy to do for a backslider to. all these things are hard for our conscience and condemning ourselves. If I were to do it again, I am 100% sure I would be in a place where I can't come back. To know your going to heaven with jesus for eternity, to turn your back on that. The greatest gift in the history of the world. What human being can get over that. for our own conscience sake once again.