Healing Services

[apothanein kerdos]

First, Centurions daughter in Luke 7:16 is actually the Widows son. (Centurion had a servant who was healed, and Jesus said it was because of his incredible faith.) Widow was weeping profusely, and the word said Jesus had compassion on her and healed her son. Jesus faith and compassion. By the way, He still has the same compassion for the sick today, and we do not see Him ever pulling that "If it by my will" on anybody. Not once. All He looked for was a reason to heal. He is begging His people to knock on that door over and over again till the anwser comes.

The fact remains that no faith was required on part of the widow. While it built up the faith, it did not take faith nor prayer for her son to be raised from the dead. That is the point I'm attempting to make. This is what I'm trying to prove. When it comes to healing, there are times faith is a non-factor. Jesus will heal inspite of our lack of faith. Yet, let's move on.

In this case He went past this womans grief and inability to believe. In fact, not too many dead had been raised at that point, so it wasn't even on the table yet. And she might not have even known who Jesus was at that point. So Jesus was establishing who He was and He did it on His faith.

On His faith? Jesus, while limited by being in a human body, was still soveriegn God. He knew exactly what He was doing and needed no faith. To insinuate otherwise is to embrace an open theistic point of view. While I agree He did this to prove to the people who He was and to build their faith, He did this miracle despite their lack of faith.

In John 11:32-44, we see that it was the faith of Jesus that raised Lazarus. (Remember, He is operating under the restrictions of being a man.) But vs 42 shows the reason that God raised Lazurus. It was to BUILD THEIR FAITH!

"..........that they may believe that thou hast sent me." All about faith!

Again, Jesus did not need to have faith in doing this. He had compassion. Mary and those around Him doubted Him and even chastized Him, saying had He been there, Lazarus would not have died. They had lost all faith in Jesus. They had lost all hope. Yet He still acted.

Luke 8:39 You have greatly misrepresented the Demoniac from the Gaderenes. The only thing that got that man to Jesus in spite of being possessed was his faith. Those demons didn't bring him to Jesus. They fought him every step of the way because they knew what would happen to them if they got near the Living God. Pure will to be healed in spite of the demonic drive to stay away from Jesus is what healed that man.Now that is faith.

If I greatly misrepresented this could you please show how? I am looking through Luke 8 and I am not seeing where exactly it states his faith brought him to Jesus. The man's reaction in verse 28 shows that he is suprised to see Jesus. He is shocked and thus falls to his feet, and the demons within him plead with Jesus. Jesus worked inspite of this mans faith.

And since God won't allow for Himself to make us a puppet, neither will He allow for demons to have control over our will. So even the Gaderenes demoniac had his will, and he showed his faith in going toward Jesus. And besides that, where does it say he had no faith? You presumed that. If you had ever seen what it takes for these victims of darkness to come to a place where they can be healed, you would know that of all people they have more faith than anyone.

I think that's quite unfair of you to assume I've never seen a demon posessed person. Yet I digress.

If he had faith then Jesus would have said so. Notice when Jesus heals people who come to Him, He always states, "Your faith has healed you". Yet He doesn't in this case, nor in the other cases I've brought forth. Thus it is a consitancy within the gospels that when a person is healed due to their faith, Jesus recognizes it. On top of that, looking to verse 28, we see the man/demon is suprised to see Jesus.

Then you point us to vs 53 without mentioning vs 50. What does it say?

"FEAR NOT; BELIEVE ONLY, AND SHE SHALL BE MADE WHOLE." The ones who laughed in vs. 53 were the professional weepers. Jesus healed this person according to the faith of the Jairus.

In verse 49, we see that Jairus is told not to bother Jesus anymore for his daughter was dead. Also, the ones who laughed in verse 53 were professional wheepers? Then please explain how they got in there when in verse 51, only Peter, John, James, and the parents were allowed in there. The fact is, they didn't have faith, and Jesus acted despite it.

You quote Acts 3:4-8 as if no faith was involved in those verses. The fact of the matter is most often those that are sick, have thee least amount of faith. They are tired, weary, and SICK. Yet Peter and John had enough faith for this man.

The fact remains that the man had no faith. He wasn't even looking for God.

Every single verse you quoted pointed toward the need to have faith or the reward of having faith. Not once did it point toward Gods will or lack of will to heal.

What the verses point towards is that often times God would heal inspite of a person's lack of faith in order to build their faith up. This is important for my next point.

So if you don't mind, get some other verses. These failed you miserably.

They didn't fail me at all. They strengthened the point I wanted to make.

The fact is, the belief that if a person doesn't get healed they lack faith is a dangerous belief. It's telling the seven year old girl who's mother just died of cancer that because her, her mom, and her family didn't have faith, her mom died. It's telling the widow that because she didn't have enough faith her husband has died. It's a dangerous and often times wrong belief to hold. Yes, we should pray that God will heal someone. However, most of all, we should pray for God's Will. That isn't a lack of faith at all. It's showing that we have faith that God is soveriegn over His creation and that He has a plan and that plan is perfect. It's showing that we have faith that He knows what He is doing by allowing these things. As Tessie pointed out, sometimes God's healing isn't what we want, yet we have to accept it. Sometimes His healing is His grace bestowed upon us to live during these difficult times. Sometimes His healing is taking someone home to be with Him. It's believing that, believing that God will heal in His own way, that God's Will can and will be acted upon, that takes faith.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

First, Centurions daughter in Luke 7:16 is actually the Widows son. (Centurion had a servant who was healed, and Jesus said it was because of his incredible faith.) Widow was weeping profusely, and the word said Jesus had compassion on her and healed her son. Jesus faith and compassion. By the way, He still has the same compassion for the sick today, and we do not see Him ever pulling that "If it by my will" on anybody. Not once. All He looked for was a reason to heal. He is begging His people to knock on that door over and over again till the anwser comes.

The fact remains that no faith was required on part of the widow. While it built up the faith, it did not take faith nor prayer for her son to be raised from the dead. That is the point I'm attempting to make. This is what I'm trying to prove. When it comes to healing, there are times faith is a non-factor. Jesus will heal inspite of our lack of faith. Yet, let's move on.

In this case He went past this womans grief and inability to believe. In fact, not too many dead had been raised at that point, so it wasn't even on the table yet. And she might not have even known who Jesus was at that point. So Jesus was establishing who He was and He did it on His faith.

On His faith? Jesus, while limited by being in a human body, was still soveriegn God. He knew exactly what He was doing and needed no faith. To insinuate otherwise is to embrace an open theistic point of view. While I agree He did this to prove to the people who He was and to build their faith, He did this miracle despite their lack of faith.

In John 11:32-44, we see that it was the faith of Jesus that raised Lazarus. (Remember, He is operating under the restrictions of being a man.) But vs 42 shows the reason that God raised Lazurus. It was to BUILD THEIR FAITH!

"..........that they may believe that thou hast sent me." All about faith!

Again, Jesus did not need to have faith in doing this. He had compassion. Mary and those around Him doubted Him and even chastized Him, saying had He been there, Lazarus would not have died. They had lost all faith in Jesus. They had lost all hope. Yet He still acted.

Luke 8:39 You have greatly misrepresented the Demoniac from the Gaderenes. The only thing that got that man to Jesus in spite of being possessed was his faith. Those demons didn't bring him to Jesus. They fought him every step of the way because they knew what would happen to them if they got near the Living God. Pure will to be healed in spite of the demonic drive to stay away from Jesus is what healed that man.Now that is faith.

If I greatly misrepresented this could you please show how? I am looking through Luke 8 and I am not seeing where exactly it states his faith brought him to Jesus. The man's reaction in verse 28 shows that he is suprised to see Jesus. He is shocked and thus falls to his feet, and the demons within him plead with Jesus. Jesus worked inspite of this mans faith.

And since God won't allow for Himself to make us a puppet, neither will He allow for demons to have control over our will. So even the Gaderenes demoniac had his will, and he showed his faith in going toward Jesus. And besides that, where does it say he had no faith? You presumed that. If you had ever seen what it takes for these victims of darkness to come to a place where they can be healed, you would know that of all people they have more faith than anyone.

I think that's quite unfair of you to assume I've never seen a demon posessed person. Yet I digress.

If he had faith then Jesus would have said so. Notice when Jesus heals people who come to Him, He always states, "Your faith has healed you". Yet He doesn't in this case, nor in the other cases I've brought forth. Thus it is a consitancy within the gospels that when a person is healed due to their faith, Jesus recognizes it. On top of that, looking to verse 28, we see the man/demon is suprised to see Jesus.

Then you point us to vs 53 without mentioning vs 50. What does it say?

"FEAR NOT; BELIEVE ONLY, AND SHE SHALL BE MADE WHOLE." The ones who laughed in vs. 53 were the professional weepers. Jesus healed this person according to the faith of the Jairus.

In verse 49, we see that Jairus is told not to bother Jesus anymore for his daughter was dead. Also, the ones who laughed in verse 53 were professional wheepers? Then please explain how they got in there when in verse 51, only Peter, John, James, and the parents were allowed in there. The fact is, they didn't have faith, and Jesus acted despite it.

You quote Acts 3:4-8 as if no faith was involved in those verses. The fact of the matter is most often those that are sick, have thee least amount of faith. They are tired, weary, and SICK. Yet Peter and John had enough faith for this man.

The fact remains that the man had no faith. He wasn't even looking for God.

Every single verse you quoted pointed toward the need to have faith or the reward of having faith. Not once did it point toward Gods will or lack of will to heal.

What the verses point towards is that often times God would heal inspite of a person's lack of faith in order to build their faith up. This is important for my next point.

So if you don't mind, get some other verses. These failed you miserably.

They didn't fail me at all. They strengthened the point I wanted to make.

The fact is, the belief that if a person doesn't get healed they lack faith is a dangerous belief. It's telling the seven year old girl who's mother just died of cancer that because her, her mom, and her family didn't have faith, her mom died. It's telling the widow that because she didn't have enough faith her husband has died. It's a dangerous and often times wrong belief to hold. Yes, we should pray that God will heal someone. However, most of all, we should pray for God's Will. That isn't a lack of faith at all. It's showing that we have faith that God is soveriegn over His creation and that He has a plan and that plan is perfect. It's showing that we have faith that He knows what He is doing by allowing these things. As Tessie pointed out, sometimes God's healing isn't what we want, yet we have to accept it. Sometimes His healing is His grace bestowed upon us to live during these difficult times. Sometimes His healing is taking someone home to be with Him. It's believing that, believing that God will heal in His own way, that God's Will can and will be acted upon, that takes faith.

Raising the dead is not healing but a miracle dont mix the two together. Miracles such as raising the dead do not require faith on part of the deceased but on the person believing God for the miracle. Healing is differant it is based on the individuals faith that needs healing or the person standing in the gap believeing with them.

God bless,

[apothanein kerdos]

Jam 5:14-16 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (16) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

My grandfather had cancer about two years ago. He was suffering greatly because of it. We did this, we prayed it, we believed it. He died shortly thereafter. My question to you: Was he healed?

[other one]

  Explain to me how God is glorified in watching people die and suffer from sickness. 

My grandmother died from brain cancer, and I can telll you that it is not a pleasant way to go. We prayed for her over and over, and I even ask God why he would not just take her and stop the craziness of the problem.

It was not until my grandmother died that we discovered the answer. There was a lady in the room next door that had relitives coming in and out much of the time. One night while my mother and dad were visiting another friend in the same rest home that my grandmother died in, they got into the conversation of why my grandmother had to suffer so before her death and that it was not right for God to put her through that.

One of the nurses over heard the conversation and let mom an dad know that many people had been watching how grandmother had handled her sickness and much of our family also. Our faith in the Father even in these kinds of situations had moved more than one of the people of the staff of the place and family of the lady in the room next door. Many seeds were planted and several came to bear fruit and all the time we did not understand what God was doing with our suffering.

My wife has the same problem for God Himself told me, I'm assuming through the actions of the Spirit, he would not heal her completely from her M.S., and when I pressed Him why, He told me very bluntly that it was none of my business....... period and end of conversation.

Just two instances where people were not healed, or in my wife's case completely healed and it has very much worked out for God's glory.

Paul himself was not healed because he needed the thorn in his side for some personal reason. I don't see the difference if the thorn was physical or spiritual, God can do either or both with no effort at all.

Thousands upon thousands of people were persicuted and killed in the first century that God could have easily saved and moved to safety, but he did not do that. He let them be mistreated, beat, hung on crosses and fed to animals, and Lord only know what else. Why???? So people like me would look back and know that if these people believed so strongly during that time that Jesus was here to take the death and mistreatment of the Romans that all this must be true that we read in the Bible. If they were brought to the Roman court and acused of being a christian, all they had to do to walk out a free person was to renounce the Savior and thousands upon thousands would not do that.

So I can tell you from experience sometimes God simply says no, I'll do my will another way. Too often too many people seem to think that Jesus promiced us a full healthy financially secure life if we only follow Him. It didn't work that way in the first century and it is not that way now.

Some are healed and some are not and only God knows for sure which is which and why is why.

[Scudbuddy]

Super Jew

The fact remains that no faith was required on part of the widow. While it built up the faith, it did not take faith nor prayer for her son to be raised from the dead. That is the point I'm attempting to make. This is what I'm trying to prove. When it comes to healing, there are times faith is a non-factor. Jesus will heal inspite of our lack of faith. Yet, let's move on.

On His faith? Jesus, while limited by being in a human body, was still soveriegn God. He knew exactly what He was doing and needed no faith. To insinuate otherwise is to embrace an open theistic point of view. While I agree He did this to prove to the people who He was and to build their faith, He did this miracle despite their lack of faith.

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MY RESPONSE

Jesus came to earth as the Son of Man. He purposely limited himself to being in a human body with human needs such as eating and sleeping. Though Sovereign God, He allowed for human frailities to show us how to live within the confines of our limitations. He strictly depended on the Father.

"I can do nothing unless I see the Father doing it." (If Jesus can do nothing, it is only because He put this limitation on himself. Just like the limitation of needing to keep His faith built up.)

"Jesus could do very little miracles because of the unbelief." (Soverign God has no limitations. Jesus had these limitations because He put them on His self. He purposely came down from Heaven Sovereign, and then limited Himself to total dependency on His Father and the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit that warned Joseph to flee to Egypt. Baby Jesus didn't start talking to Joseph and tell them to flee.)

Jesus had to get away to pray constantly to keep Himself filled with the Spirit of God. He continually was seeking the Father. He limited Himself to our needs to show us by continually seeking God, we can live an overcoming life. He never sinned in all of this, but not because He was not capable of sinning. That is why the Devil tried to get Him to sin. He was dependent on the Father and the Holy Spirit living as a man. And in his human body He needed to be close to His Father to keep the faith through the trials that faced him. Faith isn't a dirty word. Faith is a word that describes trust in someone. Jesus had it in His Father. The Trinity have it in each other. And because of His faith and His serving His Father He got to hear the words: "This is my beloved in whom I am well pleased." Those words actually are complemented by this reminder. "Without faith, it is impossible to please God."

So no, I am no Theist. I just happen to believe the bible says what it means, and means what it says.

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Super Jew

Again, Jesus did not need to have faith in doing this. He had compassion. Mary and those around Him doubted Him and even chastized Him, saying had He been there, Lazarus would not have died. They had lost all faith in Jesus. They had lost all hope. Yet He still acted.

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MY RESPONSE

I refer to my above statement, and remind you that the mysteries of God are not all anwserable. And again I refer to the verse that stated exactly why Jesus raised Lazarus. I pointed it out in my last comment. It gives the very reason. And I never said anything about it has to be just about our faith. The person who prayed (Jesus) had enough for all of them in that situation.

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Super Jew

If I greatly misrepresented this could you please show how? I am looking through Luke 8 and I am not seeing where exactly it states his faith brought him to Jesus. The man's reaction in verse 28 shows that he is suprised to see Jesus. He is shocked and thus falls to his feet, and the demons within him plead with Jesus. Jesus worked inspite of this mans faith.

I think that's quite unfair of you to assume I've never seen a demon posessed person. Yet I digress.

If he had faith then Jesus would have said so. Notice when Jesus heals people who come to Him, He always states, "Your faith has healed you". Yet He doesn't in this case, nor in the other cases I've brought forth. Thus it is a consitancy within the gospels that when a person is healed due to their faith, Jesus recognizes it. On top of that, looking to verse 28, we see the man/demon is suprised to see Jesus.

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Here is where you forget about the 4 gospels. This story is told in both Mark and Matthew also. When we look at scriptures, we are to look at the whole of scriptures before we come up with any position. In Mark 5:6 we see the heart of this man.

"But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him." Oops. No I think you have a problem with that.

As to why I still think you have little or no experience with demoniacs. One, as I said before, anyone who does knows that it takes faith to fight those things while seeking your deliverance. Two, you feign hurt, but still share nothing to contradict it. Three, because of your leaning more upon your logic, you show the signs of one who is more likely to not have alot of experiences with things of the Spiritual realm. How do I know that? I have been doing this for nearly 30 years since I was a young man. I have had these debates before. And I have seen those of your persuasion have a complete turnaround once exposed to a demoniac manifestation in full swing. Instant change. Full turn around. It shakes their little logical world to the ground.

So if you have seen a full blown manifestation with demons speaking out of people and still feel the way you do, then you are definitely a first.

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Super Jew,

In verse 49, we see that Jairus is told not to bother Jesus anymore for his daughter was dead. Also, the ones who laughed in verse 53 were professional wheepers? Then please explain how they got in there when in verse 51, only Peter, John, James, and the parents were allowed in there. The fact is, they didn't have faith, and Jesus acted despite it.

They didn't fail me at all. They strengthened the point I wanted to make.

The fact is, the belief that if a person doesn't get healed they lack faith is a dangerous belief. It's telling the seven year old girl who's mother just died of cancer that because her, her mom, and her family didn't have faith, her mom died. It's telling the widow that because she didn't have enough faith her husband has died. It's a dangerous and often times wrong belief to hold. Yes, we should pray that God will heal someone. However, most of all, we should pray for God's Will. That isn't a lack of faith at all. It's showing that we have faith that God is soveriegn over His creation and that He has a plan and that plan is perfect. It's showing that we have faith that He knows what He is doing by allowing these things. As Tessie pointed out, sometimes God's healing isn't what we want, yet we have to accept it. Sometimes His healing is His grace bestowed upon us to live during these difficult times. Sometimes His healing is taking someone home to be with Him. It's believing that, believing that God will heal in His own way, that God's Will can and will be acted upon, that takes faith.

[apothanein kerdos]

Before I post, I make it clear that I find you a person who lacks respect and even wisdom on this issue. I do not appreciate having my beliefs called demonic. You treat me with disdain and as if I have not studied the issue. You have no honor in this debate. Thus, I will make my reply and then ignore you. I seek debates with only those who present themselves in an honorabl way. You sir, have not done this.

To my reply:

Jesus came to earth as the Son of Man. He purposely limited himself to being in a human body with human needs such as eating and sleeping. Though Sovereign God, He allowed for human frailities to show us how to live within the confines of our limitations. He strictly depended on the Father.

Jesus was fully human in that He needed to eat, sleep, had the ability to sin, was tempted, and was mortal. He did not, however, need faith in God because He was God. We often times forget that He was wholly God while on this earth.

I can do nothing unless I see the Father doing it." (If Jesus can do nothing, it is only because He put this limitation on himself. Just like the limitation of needing to keep His faith built up.)

"Jesus could do very little miracles because of the unbelief." (Soverign God has no limitations. Jesus had these limitations because He put them on His self. He purposely came down from Heaven Sovereign, and then limited Himself to total dependency on His Father and the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit that warned Joseph to flee to Egypt. Baby Jesus didn't start talking to Joseph and tell them to flee.)

Unfortunate for you neither one of these quotations can be found in scripture. Jesus also did not perform many miracles because that was not His purpose on this earth. Nor is it the purpose of God's kingdom.

I refer to my above statement, and remind you that the mysteries of God are not all anwserable. And again I refer to the verse that stated exactly why Jesus raised Lazarus. I pointed it out in my last comment. It gives the very reason. And I never said anything about it has to be just about our faith. The person who prayed (Jesus) had enough for all of them in that situation.

The fact remains, no one else had faith yet God/Jesus acted. You are missing this crucial point. Because of the compassion of Jesus, He acted despite the lack of faith from everyone else.

Here is where you forget about the 4 gospels. This story is told in both Mark and Matthew also. When we look at scriptures, we are to look at the whole of scriptures before we come up with any position. In Mark 5:6 we see the heart of this man.

"But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him." Oops. No I think you have a problem with that.

Not at all. The Greek is proskuneo which means that the man fell down before Jesus. In fact, reading in context in both passages seems to indicate that it is the demon speaking and not the man. Thus the demon fell down (the Greek word is also used to describe a dog licking the hand of his master) in acknowledgement of Who he was talking to.

One, as I said before, anyone who does knows that it takes faith to fight those things while seeking your deliverance.

You base this off your own expirience and not Biblical fact.

Two, you feign hurt, but still share nothing to contradict it.

I take this as an insult to insinuate that I am faking hurt. This too, proves you are a man who lacks honor.

Three, because of your leaning more upon your logic, you show the signs of one who is more likely to not have alot of experiences with things of the Spiritual realm.

Unlike others, I refuse to let my expiriences and emotions dictate what I believe. While I let some expiriences dictate certain things, if my expirience contradicts what is found in scripture, than I refuse to believe it.

How do I know that? I have been doing this for nearly 30 years since I was a young man. I have had these debates before. And I have seen those of your persuasion have a complete turnaround once exposed to a demoniac manifestation in full swing. Instant change. Full turn around. It shakes their little logical world to the ground.

From the time I was in the crib to the age of three I was visited by demons. My brother has had these visitations as well. In high school I had a friend fall to demon posession. I have been to exorcisms. I have been to houses where the presence of evil is terribly overwhelming. I have watched people be delievered from this evil yet fought it with all their might. I have watched people say God could not deliver them, yet they were delivered. You sir, are not qualified at all to dictate to me what my belief should be.

So if you have seen a full blown manifestation with demons speaking out of people and still feel the way you do, then you are definitely a first

It's good to be the first.

First, again, go to the other gospels that shed more light on it. Mark 5:38 says "And He cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. (Vs. 37 is where he singled out who could go with them, but they had not yet arrived to the house. In the Middle East, even to this day many cultures hire professional weepers to come to funerals or death beds.)

In verse 36 Jesus had to restore the man's faith. Jesus had to encourage him to press on. It was not done on accordance of the man, but on accordence of the grace of God.

And praying "If it be thy will" which is not the pattern of prayer given by Jesus, but "Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be DONE. On Earth as it is in HEAVEN." is the prayer given to us by Jesus.

Let us finally put this nonsense to death. When Satan was cast to earth we were placed under his ursurping hand. Thus the Will of God could not be enacted. God made man to carry out His Will and to pray for His Will. God sent Jesus to restore His earthly kingdom. Thus, we are to pray for the Will of God within our lives. You act as if relying on the Will of God is a sign of unbelief. It is a sign of a humbled heart that realizes God's ways are not our ways. You say we should demand healing. I say that it is arrogance to demand from God. We should pray for His Will in all circumstances. We do not know what His healing is. We do not know why He allows suffering. Yet He does. For what reason we do not know, nor do we need to know. Asking for God's Will to occur is submitting ourselvse to Him, and that is much, much more important than demanding our wants.

Acknowledge that. Deal with it.

Ditto to you.

Your way of praying is not in the word as to how to approach sickness. Jesus so often rebuked the disciples lack of faith. Yet we as christians are so offended by the idea of being rebuked for our lack of faith. The word rebukes our lack of faith. It makes it clear that only faith pleases God.

You lack faith. You do not know what faith is. Your idea of faith is faith that our wants will be accomplished. Your idea of faith is that it will heal all sickness. That is not faith. Faith is believing in God's perfect Will. Faith is believing that whatever happens, happens for a reason. Faith is believing that God will use everything for His glory, that there is no limitation to what He can be glorified by. Faith is believing that when someone is sick or dying, that He will enact His Will in the situation and use it. That is faith.

But again, it doesn't mean we settle for that kind of life. It doesn't mean it is Gods will for life to be like that. God doesn't interfere with our choices, and He rarely intervenes against the consequences of our choices, UNLESS WE ASK! "You have not because you ask not."

Which has been my whole point. Petition God for your needs like the widow with the evil judge. Stop not knocking because you think it is Gods will to be sick. Die Knocking. Be thankful in the process, and praise God in all things, but DIE KNOCKING.

I never said we shouldn't ask. What I said is that it's a dangerous theology to ignore God's Will. We should petetion God for our desires and needs, but we should at the same time ask that His Will occurs over all. We cannot dictate what God's Will is. We cannot attempt to know what it is. We can only live His Will one day at a time. Thus while we should pray for healing, we should ask for God's Will over all.

Again, I am done with you. You have presented yourself with no honor.

[His son]

Quote:

First, Centurions daughter in Luke 7:16 is actually the Widows son. (Centurion had a servant who was healed, and Jesus said it was because of his incredible faith.) Widow was weeping profusely, and the word said Jesus had compassion on her and healed her son. Jesus faith and compassion. By the way, He still has the same compassion for the sick today, and we do not see Him ever pulling that "If it by my will" on anybody. Not once. All He looked for was a reason to heal. He is begging His people to knock on that door over and over again till the anwser comes.

You need to study some more on this issue, This does not hold up with Scripture. Paul's faith is as great as any known, and God told Him that it was His will that Paul was not healed. I personally have had 3 miracle instant healings, and have a fourth on the way because God told the one who prayed that it would not be instant but a process. He has His purpose for that, and whether it happens before or after I go to be with Him it will be according to His will not mine.

[ServingHim]

10 They said to him, "Then how were your eyes opened?" 11 He answered, "The man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, `Go to Silo'am and wash'; so I went and washed and received my sight." John 9:10-11

I love the deeper meaning of this...as the man was blind, and through 'washing' he gained sight. I don't think Jesus' main point of this was to heal his 'physical' sight...though the man's physical sight was healed. Intersting how Jesus uses 'water' to wash the man's eyes to give him sight...I believe this parallels baptism ... in baptism, we gain spiritual healing, and the eyes of faith through receivng the Holy Spirit. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9 . . . what a gift, and the blind man did NOTHING except go wash as Jesus commanded, and he gained sight and was healed.

"Whether he is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I know, that though I was blind, now I see." John 9:25

The gospel of John is like an onion...layers and layers of meaning. To stop at one meaning would deny the power of Jesus that He heals in many many ways...not just the way that we might 'see' it. IMHO. :il:

[Scudbuddy]

Super Jew, last post

"Before I post, I make it clear that I find you a person who lacks respect and even wisdom on this issue. I do not appreciate having my beliefs called demonic. You treat me with disdain and as if I have not studied the issue. You have no honor in this debate. Thus, I will make my reply and then ignore you. I seek debates with only those who present themselves in an honorabl way. You sir, have not done this."

Super Jew, 2nd post to me that set the tone for the zealousness of the debate.

"The belief that God will heal all sickness is dangerous and unbiblical. Allow me to explain:"

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That shot was taken toward me. But I didn't mind. Debates get heated because we have a passionate view of these things. And I have had much worse said to me. Even worse than that last post you made.

But no, you cannot just ignore me. If I am wrong in your eyes, you owe me your opinion to help me see the light. I have more than once in my life been persuaded from a wrong opinion by a wise man. Also, you owe it to those reading this debate who are looking for wisdom on this subject. And you owe it to yourself to hear my side of this issue, because you could be wrong.

One other thing. I have pointed out a few times where you have gotten scripture wrong such as the Centurions daughter. You have not admitted such. Yet when you pointed out that you had addressed the point that I had accused you of not addressing, and I saw that you were right, I apoligized. That is honorable. You haven't not given me an inch of being right even when I am without a doubt right. But I do not count you dishonorable for that. I just believe that you are a hard debater who is not easily moved. That is ok with me.

Now I will zealously debate you on this. My comments about the theology being demonic was as unpersonal as your comment about my theology being "dangerous and unbiblical."

But in spite of all that, I apoligize for hurting your feelings. For that, I feel bad. I hope you forgive me.

As to the 2 verses not being in there. I will put them on here with location. I quoted them from memory from a different translation than the KJV. I do not have those translations available, and I cannot remember which one it was. I used to own a bookstore, and I had dozens of translations available to me. I don't have the time to check them all. But the KJV is so similar as to back up my quotations.

John 5:19 "......The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

Matthew 13:58 "And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief."

Also, if you really look closely as to what I have been saying, we are not far apart in our beliefs. I believe God uses suffering in our lives. I just don't believe that He wants us to just give up in our prayers to just settle into our condition. I don't know why God doesn't heal instantly all the time. I do know that I have seen Him heal more often by persistent prayers. And I have also seen that the person who prays like that as time goes by see's greater and greater results and faster results than those who just give up and say "It must be Gods will!" In fact it isn't even close as to the comparison. I preach in those churches often, and I ask them about what they see. Some of those churches can't remember the last time they saw a healing. Most are lucky if a headache goes away. There are a few that see some healings of different magnitudes take place which shows that God does what He wants when He wants. That mysterious God of ours fits no pattern.

What I have seen with Churches who "Die Knocking" is an incredible pattern of major healings and I believe it is because they took God at His word, and persisted in prayer. It takes work, and it takes faith. And they see a lot of rewards for it.

Also, whenever the disciples could not heal someone, what was Jesus response to them? Was it "I guess it isn't my will for them to be healed." Did He ever say that at all? (His Son, I know you are asking me about the Paul thing and why didn't He get healed. I have already addressed this several times, and you might want to look at all my post. Sorry, Super Jew for addressing another poster in my reply to you. I am presuming he is reading this.)

No, His response to them everytime was to critique their faith. Once He also mentioned fasting and prayer to cast out demons. But the rest of the time it was stuff like this. "O ye of little faith." Or "Because of your own unbelief...." This was Jesus response to those who time after time failed in that area.

As far as your experiences with demons, may I ask. Did you find that the demons didn't take over because of your own faith? Even or should I say ecspecially at age 3, is your trust in Jesus what kept you from harm? My experience with demoniacs who come to meetings to get delivered is that that is their act of faith. While dealing with them, often the demons like the Gaderenes will speak for them. But their act of faith is their coming to the place where they can be delivered. Also I have noticed that when the demonized person is in control, and they speak, they are so under depression and discouragement. So they don't exhibit much faith. But it is their act of coming that is their mustard seed.

As an evangelist who has preached around the world, and dealt with many of them in bondage, all I have seen is their act of faith for even showing up.

Can we not agree on that?

Again, I do not wish to hurt you. I will debate vigorously, and I must say you seem to be a vigorous debater yourself. So I apoligize for any hurt I have caused you. I apoligize for questioning your hurt. Please forgive me.

David Scudder.

[Scudbuddy]

His Son,

I addressed you in my address to Super Jew, but you might not read that so I will give you my opinion here.

Paul was not sick. Paul asked for God to take away a Spirit that had been sent to buffet him. Read the whole text. Nothing in there about being sick. It says it was a Spirit. Cessationist began to teach that to discredit the healing movement some time ago. And now Spirit filled believers are beginning to believe this sort of stuff.

A man by the name of Warfield in the 1800's who after a long battle lost his wife to sickness, though he prayed vigorously for her healing popularized a theology (though these things had also been brought up in the reformation times because of the many bogus healings by the saints) in which God stopped healing after the bible was canonized. His particular commentary on Paul and this "sickness" is what really brought this into our churches. He did this out of a hurt heart toward faith healing and the extremes out there. His commentaries are the engine behind most Cessationist churches.

Unfortunately, many Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are slowly but surely taking on more and more of this theology. Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel teaches that Paul was sick. I have heard others use the same teaching. Logic and reason are replacing faith in God. I heard Chuch say on his radio show a little while ago, that he "can't remember the last time he saw a physical healing, but that was ok with him because he was seeing the greatest healing of all. Salvation of the soul."

That almost sounds right. Salvation is good. And it can fit into our logic system a lot easier than healing. Shouldn't we rely on logic for our decisions in life? We are civilized!?

Corinthians makes it clear that the "Carnal mind is at enmity with God." The carnal mind is the way we humans are taught to see things. How can we explain the supernatural? It does not fit the logical explanation of the universe. God cannot fit into it. And yet the church is swallowing the need for more logic and reason to explain scripture. And it is killing the Western Church. The Church for the most part is shrinking because of that in the Western World. Whenever we try to explain God, our God begins to look like us! And that is dangerous to all involved.