Were the Twelve and the Seventy Unique ?

[Franky67]

Sorry Onelight but i dont see why you are taking issue with Franky`s attitude, he seems to be just stating his opinion to me. Its unavoidable and natural that you both say each other is wrong in their opinion, imo.

If Franky is wrong when says he has the authority to cast out demons in Jesus name, then i guess he will flee naked and wounded when he tries to cast them out.

Which raises an interesting point. If only the Apostles could cast out demons, whos going to do it now that they are gone? or have the demons stopped inhabiting people?

Apologies if you have answered this earlier or im adding to your words, thats not my intention.

JCISGD

As I understand the bible on the issue of The function of the Body of Christ today, ,,,,,

Jesus is the head, we (the church), are His body here on the earth. We are seated with Him at the Right hand of the Father in heavenly places, Eph 2:6.

Whatever we bind or loose here on earth, is bound and loosed in heaven, IOW, we take our instructions from the Holy Spirit , who is Christ, the Head of the body.

Jesus' words in the gospels tell us that He has given HIS BODY all power, (authority) over all the power of the enemy. (If we take Jesus' words as spoken only to the 12 or 70, then we are left out in the dark, because there are no specific words of instruction to the rest of the body of Christ in the gospels. ) No, Jesus gave instructions to the body of Christ, US.

As JCISGD said above, If I try to cast out demons by my name, or any other name, except Jesus, then I will fail.

The Body of Christ is completely equipped today, just as it was in the beginning, and if we don't realize the authority we have been given, then we will fail to carry out the instructions of Christ to His body, and as a result, we will fail to carry out the great commission.

I only bring up the issue of Yea or nay on the uniqueness of the 12 and 70, to illustrate how the belief that " they had it, and we don't", creates the feeling of inadequacy in the Body of Christ. which is a form of faithlessness .

I agree that the 12 were the foundation laid by Christ, someone had to be first, but that does not take away the fact that we all receive the fulness of the inheritance. the whole of Ephesians attests to that.

Does the world today not still need the power that was meant to accompany the gospel ?

That is where you are wrong, Franky. When Christ went to the Father, He sent His Spirit to be with us and His Spirit gives gifts according the the Fathers will. You seem to be forgetting all about the Holy Spirit. One thing that stands out in your all posts is that you stand solely on the words of Jesus, as if the rest of scripture does not matter. I have to ask at this point, are you a Christ Only follower?

No, I am not of any denomination. I mentioned the whole book of Ephesians, I believe the book of Galatians gives us truth of who we are in Christ. My bible is marked throughout !!!

But please tell me specifically where I am wrong in my statements above.

Gifts are manifested in the body as the Holy Spirit sees the need, so I don't see what the problem is of us seeing ourselves as described by Paul in Ephesians and Galatians ch. 3

someone above mentioned the scripture where Jesus says at judgment, "I never knew you, depart from Me" God is a heart checker, and if we operate in the flesh as pertaining to the gifts, and we don't have love, then it's all for nothing.

[OneLight]

Sorry Onelight but i dont see why you are taking issue with Franky`s attitude, he seems to be just stating his opinion to me. Its unavoidable and natural that you both say each other is wrong in their opinion, imo.

If Franky is wrong when says he has the authority to cast out demons in Jesus name, then i guess he will flee naked and wounded when he tries to cast them out.

Which raises an interesting point. If only the Apostles could cast out demons, whos going to do it now that they are gone? or have the demons stopped inhabiting people?

Apologies if you have answered this earlier or im adding to your words, thats not my intention.

JCISGD

As I understand the bible on the issue of The function of the Body of Christ today, ,,,,,

Jesus is the head, we (the church), are His body here on the earth. We are seated with Him at the Right hand of the Father in heavenly places, Eph 2:6.

Whatever we bind or loose here on earth, is bound and loosed in heaven, IOW, we take our instructions from the Holy Spirit , who is Christ, the Head of the body.

Jesus' words in the gospels tell us that He has given HIS BODY all power, (authority) over all the power of the enemy. (If we take Jesus' words as spoken only to the 12 or 70, then we are left out in the dark, because there are no specific words of instruction to the rest of the body of Christ in the gospels. ) No, Jesus gave instructions to the body of Christ, US.

As JCISGD said above, If I try to cast out demons by my name, or any other name, except Jesus, then I will fail.

The Body of Christ is completely equipped today, just as it was in the beginning, and if we don't realize the authority we have been given, then we will fail to carry out the instructions of Christ to His body, and as a result, we will fail to carry out the great commission.

I only bring up the issue of Yea or nay on the uniqueness of the 12 and 70, to illustrate how the belief that " they had it, and we don't", creates the feeling of inadequacy in the Body of Christ. which is a form of faithlessness .

I agree that the 12 were the foundation laid by Christ, someone had to be first, but that does not take away the fact that we all receive the fulness of the inheritance. the whole of Ephesians attests to that.

Does the world today not still need the power that was meant to accompany the gospel ?

That is where you are wrong, Franky. When Christ went to the Father, He sent His Spirit to be with us and His Spirit gives gifts according the the Fathers will. You seem to be forgetting all about the Holy Spirit. One thing that stands out in your all posts is that you stand solely on the words of Jesus, as if the rest of scripture does not matter. I have to ask at this point, are you a Christ Only follower?

No, I am not of any denomination. I mentioned the whole book of Ephesians, I believe the book of Galatians gives us truth of who we are in Christ. My bible is marked throughout !!!

But please tell me specifically where I am wrong in my statements above.

Gifts are manifested in the body as the Holy Spirit sees the need, so I don't see what the problem is of us seeing ourselves as described by Paul in Ephesians and Galatians ch. 3

someone above mentioned the scripture where Jesus says at judgment, "I never knew you, depart from Me" God is a heart checker, and if we operate in the flesh as pertaining to the gifts, and we don't have love, then it's all for nothing.

Because you believe that the authority Christ gave to them is still ours today; that there are Apostles today in the same light as before, yet you have been told many times through out this thread, not only by me, but other also, that your understanding can not be so according to scripture. I even asked you to refer to EricH's post, yet nothing is mentioned about it.

I also feel you keep referring to my belief, in a passive aggressive manner at that, as if I don't fully believe in Him. I can assure you that I do, just not as you do. The Holy Spirit is very much alive today and working in the lives as He see fit. That is Who we have today, Who gives gifts according to the Fathers will.

I asked because you refuse to believe 1 Corinthians 12 where we are told the order of the church offices. You have never addressed this scripture even though you have been pointed to it more then once. Do you believe that there is structure in the church where not everyone has the same authority?

[Massorite]

Lekh again you are DEAD wrong "Daily some arte becoming disciples in the name of of Christ,... who are also receiving GIFTS, each as he is worth. These are illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another Boy teaching, and another of the fear of God". JUSTIN MARTYR He was born 100 years after the death of Christ and died in the year 165

Justin Martyr also said,

"And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."(12)

And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ." (First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 39).

This is Preterist teaching and denies the restoration of Israel to God and to their land. You gonna believe everything Justin Martyr says? Or you gonna pick and choose to believe what Justin Martyr said whenever it suits your views?

"Wretched men, indeed! They wish to be pseudo-prophets for they EXCLUDE the gift of prophecy from the church. They hold themselves aloof (separated) from the communion of the brothern. We must conclude, moreover that these men cannot admit the apostle Paul, either. For, in his letter to the Corinthians, he speaks of prophetical gifts. And recognizes men and women prophesying IN THE CHURCH. IRENAEUS He was born sometime in the second century AFTER the death of Christ and died in 202

Irenaeus maintained that the bishops in different cities are known as far back as the Apostles, and he taught that Israel is the Church. He emphasized the unique position of authority of the bishop of Rome.[26][27]

With the lists of bishops to which Irenaeus referred, the later doctrine of the apostolic succession of the bishops could be linked.

You gonna believe everything that Irenaeus taught? Or you gonna pick and choose to believe onky those parts of what Irenaeus taught that suits you?

"What is nobler then to tread under foot the gods of the nations, to EXORCISE EVIL SPIRITS, TO PERFORM CURES (healing), to SEEK DIVINE REVELATIONS, and to live to God? These are the pleasures, these are the spectacles (miracles) that befit Christian men" TERTULLIAN He was born 160 years after the death of Christ and lived until 220

What is nobler? I would say the part I will highlight in red below:

"The name of Jesus can still REMOVE DISTRACTIONS from the minds of men, EXPEL DEMONS AND ALSO TAKE AWAY DISEASES. Furthermore, [b]it produces a marvelous meekness of spirit and a complete change of character" ORIGEN

The Jews no longer have prophets or miracles. Yet, traces of those things are STILL found among Christians to a considerable extent. Some of these miracles are more remarkable then any that existed among the Jews. I HAVE WITNESSED THESE MYSELF". Again ORIGEN. He was born 185 years AFTER the death of Christ and lived until 254

ORIGEN:

interpreted scripture allegorically and showed himself to be a Neo-Pythagorean, and Neo-Platonist.[5] Like Plotinus, he wrote that the soul passes through successive stages of incarnation before eventually reaching God.[5] He imagined even demons being reunited with God. For Origen, God was the First Principle, and Christ, the Logos, was subordinate to him.[5] His views of a hierarchical structure in the Trinity, the temporality of matter, "the fabulous preexistence of souls," and "the monstrous restoration which follows from it" were declared anathema in the 6th century.[6] (see wikipedia, Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, Columbia Encyclopedia, etc - they all say the same things about these early church fathers you quote.

So you gonna believe what they taught? Or you gonna pick and choose to believe what they taught? I haven't even gone into the errors of Tertullian which even goes against this fourms SOF.

So just what early church and early church history are you talking about? How about if you give us some quotes from early church leaders and historical record to back yourself up. Where did you learn this stuff from? Who has been teaching you this stuff? Where in this world did you get the idea that God is no longer in the business of healing the sick and lame or casting out demons?

Who ever taught you that the early church or any one in the early church believed that the last of the gifts died out with the Apostle John is telling or teaching you a LIE from from the pits of hell. These men I just quoted were the early church and not one of them have made the claims you have.

So what? Are they all lier's?

Brother you need to stop making statements that are dead wrong. If the early church believed such a thing then how come there is no PROOF of such a belief.

I believe that you are making false claims because that is what you have been taught rather then doing your own research in an effort to make sure you are not being fed a lie. NEVER EVER simply take any bodies word for what they claim is the truth with out first doing some research for your self. Pastor or no Pastor you should never take what they say to heart unless have made sure that they actually speaking the truth and not some made up lie.

Brother you need to stop getting so emotionally-charged and just read what I say, instead of reading things into what I say that I never said. All I said was that all early Church history states that John was the last surviving apostle when he received the Revelation - if you don't like it - go fight with the early church historians about that fact, because I never said it. What I did say was, I wonder why the Lord gave His Revelation to the apostle John and not to another Christian, if all Christians have the same gifts and ministry the apostles had?

I also never said - even once in this thread, that God doesn't "do" miracles today - I even mentioned a miracle of healing I know of personally because it happened to a woman who goes to a church accross the road from me and I know quite a few people who go to that church - they prayed for her when she was dying, and she was completely healed. But those who prayed for her never claimed they have "the gift of healing" because JESUS healed her.

I'm not saying miracles won't happen if you lay your hands on someone's head and pray for that person - I'm telling you that in the New Testament, nine of the ten records of miracles recorded FROM ACTS THROUGH TO JUDE were performed by the apostles and Barnabus when he was with Paul, and one was performed by Stephen before he was martyred, and PAUL (not me) called the miracles performed by the apostles "the signs of an apostle".

Brother I think it's you who should stop listening to everything your Pastors say in the churches, and go and search the scriptures from Acts through to Jude like I did. Did you know that it is written that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirt AGAIN after they were filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost? Did you know that we are exhroted to keep on being filled with the Holy Spirit, and that the filling of the Holy Spirit is not a once-off thing, and yet being baptized in the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit is one and the same thing?

Did you know that if someone is filled with the HOLY Spirit he will be filled with the FRUIT of the Spirit? Did you know that the Biblical record from Acts through to Jude shows that not everyone filled with the Holy Spirit also talks in tongues, heals the sick, etc - some receive other gifts - such as understanding, or knowledge, or the ability to teach well, OR the heart to serve with love and concern for all they serve?

I think it's you who needs to stop believing evrything you are told and go search the scriptutes yourself, brother.

I don't think of Christians who don't agree with me as "non-Christians" or as people who are "bound in their blindness" - I don't THINK of them like that. But brother this thread has made me realize once and for all (despite the fact that I don't want to think like this), that mabe when Jesus comes back He's going to find a church filled with spiritual arrogance, pride and bigotry, and casting out demons and healing the sick in His name:

"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?

And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock. And the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house. And it did not fall, for it was founded on a rock.

And everyone who hears these sayings of Mine and does not do them shall be compared to a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain came down, and the floods came, and the wind blew and beat on that house. And it fell, and great was its fall." (Mat 7:22-27)

Priorities.

Lekh

So what! Does one statement from Justin cancel out the other when both statements were true. I have no idea where you got that Preterist stuff from. It looks to me that he was telling us about the past and how they were benifitting in current events because of past events. You must be confused about the Preterist concept Preterists believe that everything that was supposed to happen has already happened in the past and the we are now in the thousand years. As far as I can tell there is only one early church leader who ascribed to a preterist view and his view had nothing to do with the gifts and everything to do with the great tribulation. Sorry I don't remember which one.

Look I quoted you some quotes from some of the most prominent early church leaders and the quotes were their testimonies that the gifts were in fact working in their day long after the death of the last apostle John. You have not proved your right by running down those who died in the name of Jesus for answering the call of Jesus and doing their God job. Were they always right? No! But then again who in the human race besides Jesus has ever been always right? And IRENAEUS, he was describing you and how you believe.

You should be ashamed of your self. You brought up the early church and stated that they believed that the gifts died out with the apostles. But when I came up with recorded historical proof that you were dead wrong you started demonising the very leaders of the early church you tried to say agreed with you.

I asked you to tell me who was teaching you this stuff and you have yet to answer my question. Why? I asked you to tell me who it was in the early church that agreed with you but you have yet to answer my question. Why? I'll tell you why. Because non of the early church leaders or at the least those who's writings have been preserved agree with you. I don't believe in what the early church leaders taught but I do consider what they taught. I do believe in all of what the bible says and there is not one single shred of scripture that says that the gifts died out with the apostles. That belief is a man made doctrinal belief.

I agree with what you say about the Holy Spirit. I for one do not talk in tongues, nor do I have the gift of Healing. My wife however has the gift of being able to see what is wrong inside a persons body and then she prays for them. The gift I have is the unquenchable need to research scripture and to write books about God and the bible. It is a fire down in my bones. At this point in time I have started a book on the Quran. Its title will be "A Message To Muslems and a Guild For Christians. It will be a book that will compare the god of Mohammed to the God of Abraham, The Quran to the Bible. It will be an effort to convert Muslims and a guild to help Christians evangelize Muslims. And I have one book being published as we speak.

The plain truth here is that you have no proof to back up your beliefs or you would have used it as a rebuttal to the quotes on my last post to you. With that in mind I can see that there is no reason for me to continue this discussion any further with you. Fault can be found anywhere and any time. If that is how you wish to focus regarding the early church leaders then that is your choice. But it is not my choice. Negative is not where Jesus is at but satan is there.

[lekh l'kha]

You should be ashamed of your self. You brought up the early church and stated that they believed that the gifts died out with the apostles.

I never brought up the early church fathers at all - you did. Brother I really can't understand why you become so emotionally charged about something I never said. Good grief! (if grief could ever be good).

Where did I state that the early church fathers believed that the gifts died out with the apostles? If you read what I said, you'll see that I didn't say that. This is what I said:

1. I said all early church history states that John was the last surviving apostle when he received the Revelation.

2. I asked the question, "I wonder why?" (I wonder why the Lord Jesus Christ chose to give His Revelation to an apostle who was the last survivng apostle, if all Christians are apostles? Couldn't He have used one of the other "apostles"?)

I said nothing about what the early church fathers believed or didn't believe about that -

you were the one who brought up the subject about what this one and that one said - and you say that you don't believe what the early church fathers taught, but you do consider what they taught.

Huh? So you don't believe what they taught, but I must believe what they taught - or at least the parts you instruct me to believe?

You are either too emotionally hyped when you read what I've written, or you are deliberately twisting my words. Which one is it, brother?

By the way, I also consider what almost every Christian teaches or taught, except the Pope and his army - but the Roman Catholic Church's archives contain most of the history of the earliest Christian church - if it weren't for their archives, you probably wouldn't even know about Eusebius and the rest. But most of the early church farthers' teaching was instrumental of the formation of all Roman Catholic false doctrine.

You're right. It's pointless talking about this any longer. It leads to emotionally-charged, irrational outbursts of anger, false accusations and mindless mud-slinging.

Congratulations on your book. I hope to find out when it's published because it sounds really good and I'll want to purchase a copy.

God bless,

Lekh

[Franky67]

Do you believe that there is structure in the church where not everyone has the same authority?

A Question by OneLight

I believe we all have the same authority over the devil, we are all kings and priests, seated with Jesus at the right hand of the Father.

As to various rolls in the church structure, absolutely there are various rolls and responsibilities, and God equips each one with the gifts of the spirit as He sees the need.

And Yes I read Erich's post again, and again, the fact that the 12 are foundations in the Body of Christ has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

Also I see no merit in the link to the psychology lesson.

You can call it pride or whatever, but I have inherited exactly the very same power over the devil as Paul had, and you have too, but you can't use it if you don't believe you have it.

I direct you to Ephesians 1:18-23 , please read it again.

Last Post

[OneLight]

Do you believe that there is structure in the church where not everyone has the same authority?

A Question by OneLight

I believe we all have the same authority over the devil, we are all kings and priests, seated with Jesus at the right hand of the Father.

As to various rolls in the church structure, absolutely there are various rolls and responsibilities, and God equips each one with the gifts of the spirit as He sees the need.

And Yes I read Erich's post again, and again, the fact that the 12 are foundations in the Body of Christ has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

Also I see no merit in the link to the psychology lesson.

You can call it pride or whatever, but I have inherited exactly the very same power over the devil as Paul had, and you have too, but you can't use it if you don't believe you have it.

I direct you to Ephesians 1:18-23 , please read it again.]

Last Post

OK, now you have me wondering here. Why did you consistently state that we have the same authority as the Apostles. They had every gift from God ... all of them ... word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healings, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues, and interpretation of tongues ... all working in them all the time. We, the church, do not.

Yes, we have authority over Satan and his demons, being able to cast them out of those who are possessed. I never said we didn't.

Ephesians 1:15-23 is all about spiritual wisdom, not the full gifts of the Spirit.

Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom

15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding[c] being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

[Massorite]

You should be ashamed of your self. You brought up the early church and stated that they believed that the gifts died out with the apostles.

I never brought up the early church fathers at all - you did. Brother I really can't understand why you become so emotionally charged about something I never said. Good grief! (if grief could ever be good).

Where did I state that the early church fathers believed that the gifts died out with the apostles? If you read what I said, you'll see that I didn't say that. This is what I said:

1. I said all early church history states that John was the last surviving apostle when he received the Revelation.

2. I asked the question, "I wonder why?" (I wonder why the Lord Jesus Christ chose to give His Revelation to an apostle who was the last surviving apostle, if all Christians are apostles? Couldn't He have used one of the other "apostles"?)

I said nothing about what the early church fathers believed or didn't believe about that -

you were the one who brought up the subject about what this one and that one said - and you say that you don't believe what the early church fathers taught, but you do consider what they taught.

Huh? So you don't believe what they taught, but I must believe what they taught - or at least the parts you instruct me to believe?

You are either too emotionally hyped when you read what I've written, or you are deliberately twisting my words. Which one is it, brother?

By the way, I also consider what almost every Christian teaches or taught, except the Pope and his army - but the Roman Catholic Church's archives contain most of the history of the earliest Christian church - if it weren't for their archives, you probably wouldn't even know about Eusebius and the rest. But most of the early church Fathers' teaching was instrumental of the formation of all Roman Catholic false doctrine.

You're right. It's pointless talking about this any longer. It leads to emotionally-charged, irrational outbursts of anger, false accusations and mindless mud-slinging.

Congratulations on your book. I hope to find out when it's published because it sounds really good and I'll want to purchase a copy.

God bless,

Lekh

Thank you for your congrats

Now here is exactly what you said. "According to all early Christian and Church history, John was the last surviving apostle when he received the Revelation, which begins:

By bringing up the beliefs of the early church you did in fact bring up the early church leaders because they are the ONLY ones among the millions of early church Christians who put pen to paper and recorded the early church beliefs. Without them we would have NO record of what the early church believed.

Again you failed to answer my questions with any historically recorded evidence of any kind.

And I do agree. I use the Catholic Encyclopedia quit often. Another of the books I have studied from is called " A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs" by David W. Bercot. In his book if the doctrinal belief did not exist in the early church, he did not speak of it. So a lot of what is discussed today can not be ascribed to the early church because the doctrines came after the Roman church became the seat of Christendom sometime around 313 A.D. or later.

I do get emotional about doctrinal beliefs when false beliefs lead true Christians astray.

[KC02]

That is the Revelation of the final time....not the final time there will be revelation.

Next point?

Who will be chosen to receive this "next Revelation" of Jesus Christ of which you speak. You? Will you receive the next Revelation of Jesus Christ before He returnd, or after He returns?

Can a person be saved, born again, without a spiritual revelation of who Jesus Christ is? My answer: absolutely not. What do you think happens when one gets born again? They have a spiritual revelation of who Christ is, and their need for Him.

It leads to repentance and faith in Jesus. That is all that it takes to be saved.

[lekh l'kha]

I do get emotional about doctrinal beliefs when false beliefs lead true Christians astray.

I got what you Charismatics would call "a word of knowledge" when I read what you told me about the book that you're writing. I knew in my spirit that your inspiration for writing the book comes directly from the Holy Spirit.

And it's an extremely important book. You can't afford to get yourself all knotted up and anxious about other things while you're writing your book - it will interfere with your clarity of mind. So here are two tips:

1. Stick to the issues when you're debating with someone who doesn't believe what you believe (play the ball and not the man - don't make personal remarks), otherwise the other guy is likely to stand up for himself, and you will get yourself knotted up by becoming involved in mud-slinging.

2. State your case using as much scripture from the Bible as you can (if you read "A History of Christianity" by Paul Johnson you won't be so quick to use what the early Church fathers wrote as support for your argument - the Gentiles made a right royal mess of the faith after the departure of the last apostle) - and stop becoming anxious by making yourself responsible for what others believe or don't believe - you are not responsible for what they believe or don't believe - you are responsible only to state what you believe is Biblical, and let God do the rest. Whoever reads the thread will judge for themselves between what you say and what your opponent in the debate says (hopefully after asking the Lord to give them discernment).

The only reason why I'm giving you this long "lecture" is because I know you need to have clarity of thought without being anxious for anything while you write the book the Holy Spirit has inspired you to write. It's an extremely important book, and as far as I know, no-one has written a book along the same lines.

God bless,

Lekh.

[lekh l'kha]

That is the Revelation of the final time....not the final time there will be revelation.

Next point?

Who will be chosen to receive this "next Revelation" of Jesus Christ of which you speak. You? Will you receive the next Revelation of Jesus Christ before He returnd, or after He returns?

Can a person be saved, born again, without a spiritual revelation of who Jesus Christ is? My answer: absolutely not. What do you think happens when one gets born again? They have a spiritual revelation of who Christ is, and their need for Him.

It leads to repentance and faith in Jesus. That is all that it takes to be saved.

Jesus said,

"No one can come to Me unless the Father draw Him". "The Holy Spirit who I will send to you - He will testify of Me."

What has this got to do with the book of Revelation?

Your arguments are starting to sound like someone grasping at straws.

God gave testimony to the fact that the book of Revelation completes the Apocalypse of God, until Christ comes, by the fact that it is saturated with sevens and cycles of seven, which signifies completeness.

The Bible opens with the account of the six days of creation and the seventh day rest. The day following the shabat (from shaba: "to be complete") is the 8th day - a new beginning and the day Jesus rose form the dead.

The Bible closes with talking about a sabbath millennium immediately preceding the "8th day" - the new heavens, new earth and new Jerusalem.

Between the fall of Adam and the 8th day is a cycle of 7,000 years, and the great white throne judgment comes at the close of it - and the book which tells us this, is saturated with sevens and cycles of seven, and was given to the Lord's last surviving apostle - and that fact in itself should tell us something, too.

That final book closes like this:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." (Rev 22:18-21).

What needed to be prophesied has been prophesied.

The Greek word "propheteuo" means to speak under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It does not necessarily mean foretelling future events. If you expound the scriptures under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are "prophesying" (in the Greek). If you write a book under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (like massorite has done), you are "prophesying", and you are a prophet, having received the gift of prophecy. The gift of prophecy does not necessarily involve foretelling future events.

I believe the writings of the prophets of God which are in the Bible - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel.... Peter, Paul, James, Jude, John. I don't believe the "foretelling the future-prophecies" of other so-called "apostles". Is that a crime?

And what has this to do with salvation?

You're grasping at straws, brother.

Lekh