Botz Posted November 8, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 8, 2009 Hi JCISGD....Just a quick comment on the last thing you said concerning using Pharisees as an example of hypocrisy and legalism< I dont think its got any anti- Semitism, as we are only speaking of a group of Jews and not all Jews. Likewise it would be wrong to call me anti-American because i spoke against the KKK. There is a vast difference between the two examples...the Pharisees had, in so many words, the spiritual oversight of the Jewish people, and although the hypocrisy of some was evident, they were really representatives of the Jewish people, taught the Torah in the Synagogues, and were a voice to the nation. The KKK are a bunch of despised bigots, who in no way represent the American nation. regards Botz. ........................................... KCO2...I still say the Pharisees were the epitome of legalism. They had their belly full of religious doctrines, could recite the Torah and lived a good life, but how many of them recognized the God that stood before them, they were supposed to be serving? It is true that some/many of the Pharisees had succumbed to a legalistic spiritual life, and in some cases there was an outward show, but an inward poverty...but Jesus called them out when they needed to be called out, and in the context of a family setting He seemed harsh and confrontational...but I don't for one moment think He despised the Phaisees per se, or disagreed with their teaching...on the contrary He told the people to listen to what they spoke about (but not to do as some of them did). Jesus/Yeshua was the fulfilment of the Law, there would be no room for a leagalistic approach under grace...which is something the Pharisee Paul (and he remained a Pharisee throughout his life) recognized only too well and was determined it should not have a chance to flourish in the early Church. I know it might seem a small point, but from where I stand it would be correct to say 'SOME of the Pharisees were the epitome of legalism'. How many recognized the G-d who stood before them?...eventually, as with the twelve disciples there came the revelation of Messiah, Personally I believe many Pharisees came to faith in Yeshua, and laid down their lives on account of His name.... regards Botz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted November 9, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 9, 2009 'Botz' date='Nov 8 2009, ........... Openly Curious Yes, I believe there are legalist out there who boldly hold onto their belief in legalism. I do believe they are the Pharisee's of our day exalting the "legalism" doctrine high above others to show themselves more holy than others. And I believe those who hold onto the false doctrine are wiggling, twisting to keep from obeying God. Apearing that they are worshipping God in spirit and truth but inside they are dead man's bones. ........... KCO2 Legalism concerns the Mosaic Law. The Pharisees were the epitome of legalists. They accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath by healing or eating ... and so on. Their accusations were never ending. I think it gives the wrong impression when we use the Pharisees purely in a negative light, and is also 'short of the mark' from a biblical historical perspective. There is absolutely nothing wrong with speaking out against the Pharisee's in our day and reveal the truth that is hidden about them ripping their masks of so others will take heed to their teachings. If one cannot speak out against the doctrines of the Pharisee's and the error that they are teachings then ministers cannot preach against anything else that Jesus taught. The preaching of the gospel is not to accept what you want from the word but it is to accept all of the word. I think it gives the wrong impression to Christians who do not preach against those who are following the doctrine of the Pharisee's What kind of love and impressions do we give when we with hold truth? Why isn't repentance unto salvation preached to the Pharisee's? Could it be we are afraid of speaking the truth in love could it be we are afraid of being labled to speak against false doctrine oc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted November 9, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 9, 2009 There is absolutely nothing wrong with speaking out against the Pharisee's in our day and reveal the truth that is hidden about them ripping their masks of so others will take heed to their teachings. If one cannot speak out against the doctrines of the Pharisee's and the error that they are teachings then ministers cannot preach against anything else that Jesus taught. The preaching of the gospel is not to accept what you want from the word but it is to accept all of the word. I think it gives the wrong impression to Christians who do not preach against those who are following the doctrine of the Pharisee's What kind of love and impressions do we give when we with hold truth? Why isn't repentance unto salvation preached to the Pharisee's? Could it be we are afraid of speaking the truth in love could it be we are afraid of being labled to speak against false doctrine oc Hi OC...Unfortunately I think you have totally missed the point I was trying to express...and by example you reinforce the type of misunderstanding that is common amongst us Gentile Believers. Jesus was not against the doctrines of the Pharisees per se, He exposed some of the hypocisy that was evident amongst them, and He also made it clear that some of their traditions made null and void the Torah of G-d which they thought they kept so well, and placed unnecessary burdens on those they taught. You are also building a rather substantial straw-man, when you go on about being afraid to speak the truth in love...and being afraid of being labelled when speaking out against false doctrine. In Messiah. Botz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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