Romans 11:32

[QuaestorRexRegis]

I don't believe that, but explain this verse better, please.

[Guest leejosepho]

QuaestorRexRegis:

Greetings to you!

I would probably not say I doubt what Paul says in the verse you have mentioned from one of his personal letters to the Romans -- I know not even as much as did he -- but I surely do admit to having some questions of my own ...

To wit: Why did IAUE even create evil in the first place?

In any case, Paul seems to believe he has some answers in the remainder of that chapter, and I am willing to accept them ... even though I can but barely comprehend them.

Rhetorically: How can we know the mind of the One who created us?  For as even He has said, His ways are not ours.

Blessings!

Lee

[QuaestorRexRegis]

lj: Good Day to you -

1st I consider you a friend since you took the time to be the first with such kind words on my thread.

2nd I respect you enough not to use the "J" name in response to you, but I am not used to using the "I" name - please be patient with such a one as me...

Now to it -

I know that the term "creation" means to have the Creator make from non-existence.

Though, creation was seen as "good" by the Creator, it was still His grace that was shown to even be in His presence because of the 'nature' of creation not being the Creator (Romans 1:19)

When creation sinned in earth, God provided the way to have it return to its starting point (plus a little - 1 Corinthians 15:47)

I do not see God as having created sin - but sin exists by the very presence of that which is not God (not to sound zen-ish) for God to use to create.  Did God create from sin?  That is not my call - I might get slain in...oops wrong thread.

[Ovedya]

Hi, QuaestorRexRegis.

I guess I'm having a little trouble answering your question.  Salvation does not require sin, but salvation is needed because of sin.  Paul declares earlier in the book that "all have sinned."  So whether sin is a requirement really does not make much difference.  You see?

God's intention for man was way beyond simply having creatures that would worship Him and have dominion over the earth.  God's intent in creating man was to have a corporate expression of Him in life and in nature. The tree of life was intended to bring the divine, eternal nature of God into man so that man could corporately express Him.  

But of course we know that man chose wrongly in the beginning.  Without Adam's disobedience, there would have been no need for salvation through Christ's blood to begin with.  So salvation was not needed prior to the fall of man.

Not sure if that helps your question any, though.  Another verse you might try is Galatians 3:22.

[QuaestorRexRegis]

Thank you, G-m.  My second entry was meant in response to lj's mention of "creating evil" - I do not believe that.

I see evil - to us - as being disobedience to God.  I see evil - to God - as being anything not worthy to be in His presence.  We are made worthy by the blood of Jesus.  Yet, before man's sin, I determined that a redeemer was still needed.  Why indeed would the tree of the knowledge of good and evil even need to be placed in the center of the garden (sorry not starting a new thread, yet).

Romans 11 being kept within context was in answer to how the Jew and the Gentile of Paul's time were on an equal plain before God.

My question is to wit:  did God mean for all men to be disobedient?

[tsth]

My question is to wit:  did God mean for all men to be disobedient?

Not to be flip, but I don't feel it's my place to say, what God meant.  But, I do believe that all men have been disobedient, and will be disobedient,  but One.  I don't believe we'll have the total answer until we're complete.  But for the time being, yes, I do know that there is a final purpose for good in "it" (it, meaning disobedience).  But I don't understand it all yet.  I see a testing and refining for men, that must include the persecution of them by the disobedience of other men, but I cannot say why, other than refining.  And I do not believe that men must "stay" in disobedience, although many will.

Not sure that makes sense, but it partially does within me.

1 Cor. 13:12

In His Love,

Suzanne

[QuaestorRexRegis]

yes, suz, that does make sense - I do not disagree - I am just jumping in to a question that I believe can be answered for this time better than the same ole same ole

I do not see God as ever desiring disobedience of any sort - it is not His character to accept any holiness that cannot worship Him; i.e. Jesus is the way...

In the grand scheme of things, as God being the only Creator, there is a much fuller appreciation of His 'way' through the historical account(s) in the Logos.  Romans was written for us to see the growth of the Christian (individually or as the nation of His covenant) from God's perspective.  I believe that God knew the two ways that His creation could prosper - either with or without sin.  Since sin entered, I believe the plan(s) were already in motion because God understood what needed to be done.  The true thing that we won't know now is what would have happened if we had never sinned (and I'll bet we could even know some of that...but that would be another thread still.)

[tsth]

I guess this is a strange way to look at it, but from reading Romans 2:9, 9:22, and others that speak of God's great patience toward those who were and are disobedient, I gather that they then become a vessel of wrath after a long-suffering of the Lord in waiting and patience, in use towards refining or compelling one to turn to the Lord.  I believe that there is a use for good for those who are disobedient and will not turn, just as Pharoah was used to show God's great power to the Israelites.  Just as Joseph's brothers' disobedience was used to show God's great power in honoring their brother who was to be their leader because he trusted the Lord.  Paul's disobedience, etc....but the ultimate was Satan's disobedience toward God.

Just my thoughts.  It seems to me that through the ultimate disobedience where one has totally denied God, he is then used as an object of wrath.  Romans 9:22

But I still stop at Romans 11:32 and wonder.   :???:

Exactly what can it mean?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[QuaestorRexRegis]

suz - you have touched some mysteries that belong here, but would make some marvelous threads (and I might use some if you don't) - Romans really needs to be seen as a progression of faith from the unbeliever in chapter 1 to the imitator of Christ in chapter 15.  The disobedience starts in chap. 1 (and before) and we must face this either in repentance or in that ultimate grossness of hell.

OOOOOOO - new threads come to mind...

look for me elsewhere...this is fun :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:  :lightbulb:

[tsth]

Oh good, I'll check in later to see what you came up with. "Or, should I go and take a look at the menu board?"  I'll go and see if you went there.

In His Love,

Suzanne