exrockstar Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 8, 2009 Some folk blame all of the evil that is in creation as having been a result of freewill choices. Satan made a freewill choice adn GOD didn't intend Satan to be what he is. If Satan, one of the angels who was always in the presence of GOD, was able to choose to rebel against GOD without it being something GOD intended, then how will HE keep rebelion from happening in heaven again? Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? of coarse God expected a rebellion to occur before He created the angels. Yes, God knew that free-will will run its coarse. God's character would of destroyed all those rebelling angels but they were not destroyed. "Why not" is what you should be asking. It seems as though a price was already paid or "something" was holding Him back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 Some folk blame all of the evil that is in creation as having been a result of freewill choices. Satan made a freewill choice adn GOD didn't intend Satan to be what he is. If Satan, one of the angels who was always in the presence of GOD, was able to choose to rebel against GOD without it being something GOD intended, then how will HE keep rebelion from happening in heaven again? Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? of coarse God expected a rebellion to occur before He created the angels. Yes, God knew that free-will will run its coarse. God's character would of destroyed all those rebelling angels but they were not destroyed. "Why not" is what you should be asking. It seems as though a price was already paid or "something" was holding Him back. I think the something holding HIM back is HIS plan and purpose for making them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 .... IF, as some believe, Satan was made a certain way and then chose to be something else, how do we know GOD can keep that from happening again, if HE couldn't keep it from happening the first time? Reason One And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:3-5 Reason Two I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelation 22:13-15 It's All About Jesus And About His Throne..... First, I always love your posts. That said, this post is the one that I meant when I answerred the question about how do you have faith in GOD being able to do as HE has said HE will do with the next creation if this creation is not what HE intended it to be. The answer "because HE said so" doesn't hold much water if you feel that HE didn't intend HIS first effort to be what it is. NOw, I am absolutely convinced that GOD is an absolute soveriegn GOD. I am certain that all of creation is exactly what HE wants it to be. For me, the answer "because HE said so" is perfect because I believe HE can keep sin and evil away from anyone and anything HE wants to. I also believe that sin and evil are only where HE wants them to be. HOwever, if I believed as some do, that GOD intended paradise (and the fall of the world and the introduction of sin and evil was not HIS plan from the very beginning) then I would have some doubt as to whether HE could make the next heaven and earth any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? God does not make mistakes. He is a perfect God. But then who has known the mind of the Lord? When the Lord spoke to Job in Job 38-41, He basically made it clear to Job how very little Job knew and understood. Blessings...South I take it that you are one who believes GOD didn't intend for Adam to eat the fruit. That the fall of the world wasn't HIS plan and intention from the beginning. Because I agree with you, GOD never makes a mistake. No-one thwarts HIS plans and purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 8, 2009 Some folk blame all of the evil that is in creation as having been a result of freewill choices. Satan made a freewill choice adn GOD didn't intend Satan to be what he is. If Satan, one of the angels who was always in the presence of GOD, was able to choose to rebel against GOD without it being something GOD intended, then how will HE keep rebelion from happening in heaven again? Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? of coarse God expected a rebellion to occur before He created the angels. Yes, God knew that free-will will run its coarse. God's character would of destroyed all those rebelling angels but they were not destroyed. "Why not" is what you should be asking. It seems as though a price was already paid or "something" was holding Him back. I think the something holding HIM back is HIS plan and purpose for making them. His plan cannot hold something back. If that were true then His Godly attributes are flawed. The moment one goes against a single word of God then a price has to be paid. His attributes would demand judgement. A plan cannot pass off as righteousness. If that were true then Christ should of not died and accepting a "plan" would of been suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Since I believe evil and the fall was part of the plan for the Earth, and that nothing happens outside of GOD's will, I have no problem with the idea that GOD can create heaven without sin or evil. I believe GOD could have created the earth without sin or evil, and kept evil out. It just wasn't HIS intention to do so. Your position is based on the assumption that nothing happens unless God intends for it to happen. The problem is that you have to step outside Scripture to make that argument. The Bible does not say that, so your assumption is not based on biblical fact from the get-go. You are relying on your assumption and trying to interpret the Scripture to fit your assumption. You do not have a biblical grasp on God's sovereignty and you are relying on an unbiblical assumption. The Bible says that nothing happens outside God's knowledge and permission. It does not say that everything happens because God intends. The Bible does not even say that God intended man to fall. All we know from Scripture is that God permitted what He knew would happen and that He already had a plan in place to redeem man from the fall. You have NO biblical grounds for claiming that God intended the world to be in the condition it is in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCISGD Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 64 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,345 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/05/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1961 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Since I believe evil and the fall was part of the plan for the Earth, and that nothing happens outside of GOD's will, I have no problem with the idea that GOD can create heaven without sin or evil. I believe GOD could have created the earth without sin or evil, and kept evil out. It just wasn't HIS intention to do so. Your position is based on the assumption that nothing happens unless God intends for it to happen. The problem is that you have to step outside Scripture to make that argument. The Bible does not say that, so your assumption is not based on biblical fact from the get-go. You are relying on your assumption and trying to interpret the Scripture to fit your assumption. You do not have a biblical grasp on God's sovereignty and you are relying on an unbiblical assumption. The Bible says that nothing happens outside God's knowledge and permission. It does not say that everything happens because God intends. The Bible does not even say that God intended man to fall. All we know from Scripture is that God permitted what He knew would happen and that He already had a plan in place to redeem man from the fall. You have NO biblical grounds for claiming that God intended the world to be in the condition it is in. while i agree with what you say Shiloh, would you supply scriptures for us for your last paragraph, esp the first sentance, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 why am i even doing this? God doesn't make mistakes. about that, kross is right. but PEOPLE do make mistakes, and PEOPLE sin against God and grieve the Holy Spirit all the time. God knows full well that it is human nature to sin, and knows before hand exactly what we are going to do, even when we screw up. that does not mean it is God's WILL that we screw up. and yes, God's plan, (as in His perfect will) can be thwarted by human error. but that's ok because God knows beforehand that it will happen, and His ULTIMATE will will be done. ultimately, everything will be worked out according to His plan and purpose. that is the sovereignty of God. but the details along the way are often not the way God would have preferred it to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted December 8, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 8, 2009 and yes, God's plan, (as in His perfect will) can be thwarted by human error. are you saying that human error can affect God's overall plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 and yes, God's plan, (as in His perfect will) can be thwarted by human error. are you saying that human error can affect God's overall plan? no. did you read my entire post or just one sentence? do you understand the difference between God's perfect will and His sovereign will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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