Salvation

[OneLight]

Alan (Onelight)

It's sad that the first extended dialogue that I've had on this forum should be founded in two peeps trying to impose their convictions on each other.

I retreat to my overiding conviction that no one sees through the darkened glass sufficiently clearly to be dogmatically assertive.

As I've already said the scriptures are awash with apparent ambiguities.

Might that not be for a reason?

Might it not be in order to keep us 'in our place'?

I.e. in circumspect deference to the darkened glass.

Wadya think?

Mike.

I think you are spot on with this. We do see through as glass darkly, in a mirror dimly. It is the faith we have in Him that brings us to be more like Him, not always in our own understanding.

I see this conversation not as a sad event, but one of acceptance, standing firm in ones faith, and a dialog where iron sharpened iron. We may not change our train of thought, but we both reinforced our beliefs and understood each others. This is growth, and even though it can be viewed as imposing our convictions on each other, nevertheless, it has been a conversation that we never would of had if it were not for our differences. Not every time we meet another brother will it begin with a positive conversation, yet we are brothers and when we do meet in Him, we will not be strangers.

Don't be discouraged by disagreements. Welcome them, for in all things there is a lesson.

God Bless,

Alan

[wyguy]

Repent (ask forgiveness for and turn away) from your sins, and place your faith in the Savior Jesus Christ.

Simple.

[OneLight]

Baptism is a work that we do because of salvation.

Jesus and Peter both disagree with your assessment – Jesus is clear both belief and baptism PRECEDE “shall be saved.” Peter is also clear – those who believe must also “repent and be baptized” (immersed in water) FOR the remission of sins then (and only then) will they receive the “gift of the Holy Spirit.” Baptism is a work of God performed by the hands of men. Baptism was ordained and commanded by God and it is an essential part of the gospel of grace as it points to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

He that believes and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16, AKJV)

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38, ESV)

Paul believed on the name of the Lord, i.e., he believed Jesus was the Messiah on the road to Damascus but his sins were not washed away until he was baptized in water “calling on the name of the Lord.”

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16, KJV)

Jesus said to believe first. Believe in what or who? In the salvation that comes through Christ. When you believed, you obey. The proof of obeying is to be baptized, the second in his statement. Scripture also tells us in Romans 10:10 ... "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ", where there is no mention of baptism, but notice it does say that with our mouth confession is made unto salvation. We also find in Acts 2:21 ... "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Again, no mention of baptism, only calling on the name of the Lord. Yet, Peter, after stating these words, went further and commanded them to be obedient through the act of baptism, as you point out in verse 38. We also find in Ephesians 2:8-10 ... "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Notice that it is not of works. Works has a tendency of causing one to become prideful, if they are not in accordance to Gods will, which they also mention.

It is very interesting how you left off the end of Mark 16:16, so lets look at it in it's entirety. Mark 16:16 ... "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Who is damned? Those who do not believe. Jesus does not say those who are not baptized. Yet, I will agree that if you don't believe, you will never become baptized.

There a many more places in scripture where baptism is not mentioned with salvation., but I will not flood this thread with them all. No matter how much you would like to stand on a few verses to back yoru belief, there are much more that stand against works salvation.

[Matthitjah]

I was wondering. Where is it recorded that Abraham was Baptised?

[OneLight]

It is very interesting how you left off the end of Mark 16:16, so lets look at it in it's entirety. Mark 16:16 ... "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Who is damned? Those who do not believe. Jesus does not say those who are not baptized. Yet, I will agree that if you don't believe, you will never become baptized.

Surely you are not suggesting the latter clause of Mark 16:16 some how negates the requirement from the Lord to both believe and be baptized and then one will be saved? You defy the rules of grammar if that is your suggestion. The latter clause simply states the truth that the one who refuses to believe is damned already, i.e., belief is prerequisite for baptism. One who is baptized but refuses to believe in Messiah only gets wet. There is no magic in the water to wash away sin – what washes away sin is the blood of Christ. Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God and points to the resurrection of Christ (1 Peter 3:21) and is ordained and commanded by the Lord – this fact makes baptism essential to the gospel of Christ.

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry

There a many more places in scripture where baptism is not mentioned with salvation., but I will not flood this thread with them all.

But what do you do with the many passages I have provided that show baptism comes before “shall be saved” and baptism comes before ones sins are remitted? Do you sweep them under the carpet? Are we not told to teach the full council of God? Doesn't His full council include baptism for the remission of sins?

What baptisim do you think Jesus was talking about ... water or the Holy Spirit?

One must remember that the Bible never contradicts itself. Over and over the Scriptures make it plain that one is saved by grace through faith alone. John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Also, in Romans 10:9 it says, “That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” In both verses it says nothing about baptism.

[~Shalhevet~]

Oh great -

Now you all are going to confuse poor Or'el with Calvinism/Armenianism.

What is that? :rolleyes:

[OneLight]

What baptisim do you think Jesus was talking about ... water or the Holy Spirit?

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born

of water

and

the Spirit

, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

(Joh 3:5 ESV)

Both of course

[~Shalhevet~]

Maybe I should be rebaptised just to be safe? This is kind of a BIG deal. This is my salvation we're talking about.

[OneLight]

Again, you cut scripture off where you don't like what it state ... let take scripture at it's fullness.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

But I like the passage (one of my favorites) and it in no way negates the words of Jesus to believe and be baptized and then one will be saved. Do you think the passage negates Jesus words? You didn

[CBE1]

Jn 3:16 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will have eternal life.

If you add anything to this, then you make this statement untrue unless whatever added somehow is necessary to believe or a direct and unavoidable result of believing.

So since the Scriptures also say that whoever believes and is Baptized will be save; being Baptized must either be necessary to believe or must be an unavoidable result of believing, otherwise you are in a position of saying that John 3:16 is not true, and that can not be anymore that the other. So both taking away or adding to in this since is wrong if the Scriptures are correct.

Since we confess that we believe the Scriptures are from the Lord, both must be correct. As for me, I think the true baptism is a baptism of the Spirit. That this spiritual baptism occurs either before and concurrently with belief. The baptism of water is 'John's Baptism' and the difference is pointed out in Acts. Clearly we do things symbolically. And John's Baptism seems symbolical of what happens in the spirit, else why call is "John's Baptism" as opposed to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Acts 19:3 - Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

It seems to me, that John Baptized with water to indication that the Lord Jeus Christ, which was coming later, would Baptized with the Holy Spirit. For Jesus said that He would sind the Spirit. So I think the Baptism we are talking about concerning salvation, is a Baptism of the Spirit, which the Lord promised to send, but isn't that promise from the Lord only for those that believe? So since God is not slow like we think, I think the baptizm of the Spirit is something that happen virtually concurrently to believing. Thus being baptized in the Spirit is a direct and unavoidable conclusion of believing, otherwise the promise the Lord made to send the Spirit would be incorrect.

However, I do not necessary believe that the gift of tongues must accompany that baptism, because the gift of tongues is a gift from the Spirit. So it might be possible to recieve the baptism of the Spirit and not the gift of tongues. they do tend to go together in the Scriptures, but couldn't someone believe, but not want the gift? I suppose it is possible.