Am I the only one sick of prophets for profit???

[BlindSeeker]

You have a knack for making this more complicated than it is.

Jesus' own words denote what the problem was. They had made the place a den of thieves. It was not the act of buying and selling was not the problem. The dishonest monetary exchange was the problem. They were stealing money from out of town Jews.

LOL . . . .yeah . . . I really complicated it all.

I guess it isn't feasible that they were also charging too much for their sheep, oxen and doves . . . .

[Matthitjah]

Bless you bro,

Again, that is a nonissue. If you were traveling from a long distance, it would not have been practical to have to manage a Lamb and doves. Pilgrims that arrived for Passover in or around March/April, stayed all way through to the feast of Shavuot around May/June. So you expected to say for several weeks and it would have been impractical to manage all of your personal belongingsn for several days over hills and through rivers and risk them being stolen, injured or lost during travel. The ability to purchase a proper animal or dove in Jerusalem was an extremely practcal means of handling that.

There weren't merchants somewhere along the way or in the City proper where they could have purchased them? Why would the Priests need to be involved in this commerce and in the Temple Courts of all places?

These leaders were profiting handsomely from this Merchandising of Offerings.

The Temple Tax was what the money changers were exchanging money over. The Law stated that it had to be paid in the Shekel, thus the exchange. This money coming in would have paid the Guards.

Why would there need to be? There is no prohibition agaisnt it and Jesus never condemned it.

I didn't state that there was a prohibition.

I am stating that it was the motives behind it and the fact that it was in the Court of the Temple showed that.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest shiloh357]

There weren't merchants somewhere along the way or in the City proper where they could have purchased them?

Not for anything you needed to be kosher for Passover.

Why would the Priests need to be involved in this commerce and in the Temple Courts of all places?

Remember the shepherds in the story about the birth of Jesus? Those were temple priests watching over the Lambs that would be used later for Passover as well as for the daily burnt offerings. The field that shepherds was just outside the Temple between Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Those were not just ordinary Lambs and they were not being overseen by just ordinary shepherds. These Lambs were special and it is no coincidence that the ultimate Lamb of God was witnessed by Temple shepherd/priests who were watching over lambs bred and raised for the services of the Temple. So it is not far-fetched that priests would be involved in selling them as well. From birth to the altar, priests would have been constantly watching over these and other animals to make sure they stay suitable for service.

Even today, nonliving ritual items are handled and supervised constantly every step of the way by Rabbis to make sure they remain kosher. Even animals raised for kosher slaughter are raised on special farms and handled by numerous and intricate laws by specially trained men who have the authority to accept or reject the animal as suitable for human consumption. Same goes for food that is not an animal prodcut. There is a special certification known as a "Hescher" for kosher food that must be afixed to the packaging otherwise it cannot be put on the shelves of local kosher gocery stores/delis. By the way, not everything bearing the name "kosher" really is. Kosher certification is not as easy to get as you might think. It was an issue in Jesus' day as well.

These leaders were profiting handsomely from this Merchandising of Offerings.

yes, but profiting is not a sin so long as you come by it honest. It is when you profit handsomely through dishonest measures like cheating foreigners on the rate of monetary exchange that the profit becomes a problem.

The Temple Tax was what the money changers were exchanging money over.

That might have been part of it.

The Law stated that it had to be paid in the Shekel, thus the exchange. This money coming in would have paid the Guards.

That might be true, but that is still not really the issue Jesus had with what was going on. His issue was the unfair rate of exchange particluarly when this it is being done in the Lord's House AND is being done in connection with a Festival meant to honor God. The moral contradiction is obvious.

[Guest shiloh357]

I guess it isn't feasible that they were also charging too much for their sheep, oxen and doves . . . .

That may have been part of it as well. I did not say such was not feasible. But the money changers were not selling anything. The buying and selling was never the problem. It was profiting by dishonest means (either in overcharging for the animals, or by the unfair exchange rate) that prompted Jesus to tell them they were making the temple into a den of thieves.

My only point was that one cannot impugn churches for having sales or allowing things to be sold on their premises by using the story of Jesus clearing the temple. It is a completely different situation.

[Fez]

My church has a table where we can buy books and bibles if we want or need them. I bought my last bible there at a significantly lower cost (20% less) than I could have in a Christian bookstore in one of our malls.

I don't see the problem with that, as it is not for profit, and is for the edification of the body.

[wyguy]

Publishing houses and TV stations don't work for free. People have to take financial care of their families - even the non-Christian people working for those publishing houses and TV stations.

But I would draw the line at "miracle healing handkerchiefs!"

[Fez]

Publishing houses and TV stations don't work for free. People have to take financial care of their families - even the non-Christian people working for those publishing houses and TV stations.

But I would draw the line at "miracle healing handkerchiefs!"

I dunno, you gotta have something to blow your nose on.....

[traveller]

Our church has an office where you can buy books or CDs at a reasonable fee. It's not open on Sundays, you have to go there during the week. I think that's proper.

However, when a guest speaker comes, and delivers an emotional message, you can pass by a merchandise table on the way out and select something that really "struck a chord" during his talk. It's an emotional sale. He's counting on it. That sort of thing I highly disagree with. Taking up an offering for a guest speaker is one thing, but offering up his wares after watching his videos or listening to his heart-felt lectures is taking advantage of a captive audience. I don't think the church is the place for "business." But - thats' different than having to buy to gain entrance.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

In the scriptures in the above post, provided by BlindSeeker, they say that He "cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple..."

I don't see where they fled in fear of being caught up in the fray. It clearly says He cast them out.

[Guest shiloh357]

Our church has an office where you can buy books or CDs at a reasonable fee. It's not open on Sundays, you have to go there during the week. I think that's proper.

I agree. Sunday is not a day for the church to be conducting business.

But - thats' different than having to buy to gain entrance.

Who said anything about having to buy to gain entrance? Did you get that from any posts in this thread?

In the scriptures in the above post, provided by BlindSeeker, they say that He "cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple..."

I don't see where they fled in fear of being caught up in the fray. It clearly says He cast them out.

That ist true, but that is not all that it says. If the story ended there, it would be different. Jesus complaint was that they had made it into a den of thieves. His complaint was not that they were buying and selling. His problem was with the dishonest dealings, and for that reason he cleared the place. Jesus' statements cannot be factored out of the story. This was not being done on the Sabbath or any other Holy day, so there is no conflict in that area. It simply pertains to men dealing dishonestly and profiting thereby.

[Matthitjah]

Shiloh,

I have one more question and I appreciate the responses thus far.

Who raised and inspected the Sheep that were killed and offered as a covering on the first Passover in Egypt?

Peace,

Dave