Rapture References Part Two

[e lansing]

I've debated this before, more than on one occasion; and I've come to the conclusion that the rapture will indeed be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Concerning the differences between the pre and mid and post trib folks it seems to be a matter of interpretation.

Here are some interesting facts that are hard to ingore.

1. The definition of the English term (caught up) in the Greek (harpazo) And the context in which it is used. in 2 Corth 12:2; 12:4; 1Thess 4:17; Revelation 12:5

The

2.

How are these word used in the context of scripture? Where is a time line that gives proof of when the pre-position is to happen? When is at the core of this issue.

[spiritman]

I've debated this before, more than on one occasion; and I've come to the conclusion that the rapture will indeed be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Concerning the differences between the pre and mid and post trib folks it seems to be a matter of interpretation.

Here are some interesting facts that are hard to ingore.

1. The definition of the English term (caught up) in the Greek (harpazo) And the context in which it is used. in 2 Corth 12:2; 12:4; 1Thess 4:17; Revelation 12:5

The

2.

How are these word used in the context of scripture? Where is a time line that gives proof of when the pre-position is to happen? When is at the core of this issue.

You asked " how are these words used in context"

My response; " In 2 Corth 12:2 Paul speaks about being caught up (harpazo, snatched up taken by force)

into the the third heaven". This is used to describe in context an indivdual who was taken into heaven.

In 2Corth 12:4, again the word is used to describe someone who was taken up into paradise.

In Revelation 12:5; in context caught up is used in context again to describe a child who was caught into heaven to God.

I have yet to find a place in the scripture where harpazo is used in any othe way. In context

You stated; " Where is a time line that gives proof of when the pre-position is to happen?

my response; "If you look at the book Daniel when describing the six weeks, it author turns his attention to Israel during the 7th week, and the church is not mentioned.

[OneLight]

Allow me to ask this question. When is the last trumpet?

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

[lekh l'kha]

people who believe ion a pre-tribulation rapture, because they have a zeal for Christ and His return that is unsurpassed, though matched by many who do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture

Lekh

Indeed. Conversations such as these show both sides of the issue we are discussing, allowing the reader to evaluate, and make decisions on which position they believe the Scriptures teach. That is one of the reasons that such discussions have their place in forums such as this. I appreciate and respect your position on this issue, as I believe that you respect the position that I have presented. That is not the attitude of some others who have responded to discussions such as this one. Those types I choose to ignore instead of arguing with. That just comes with maturity, of which I am still developing.

Thanks,

Rick

[e lansing]

I've debated this before, more than on one occasion; and I've come to the conclusion that the rapture will indeed be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Concerning the differences between the pre and mid and post trib folks it seems to be a matter of interpretation.

Here are some interesting facts that are hard to ingore.

1. The definition of the English term (caught up) in the Greek (harpazo) And the context in which it is used. in 2 Corth 12:2; 12:4; 1Thess 4:17; Revelation 12:5

The

2.

How are these word used in the context of scripture? Where is a time line that gives proof of when the pre-position is to happen? When is at the core of this issue.

You asked " how are these words used in context"

My response; " In 2 Corth 12:2 Paul speaks about being caught up (harpazo, snatched up taken by force)

into the the third heaven". This is used to describe in context an indivdual who was taken into heaven.

In 2Corth 12:4, again the word is used to describe someone who was taken up into paradise.

Paul is speaking about a person that he had heard about that was caught up to the 3rd heaven. How can get a rapture of the whole Church of Christ? This is no bases in which to accept pre-trib.

In Revelation 12:5; in context caught up is used in context again to describe a child who was caught into heaven to God.

The child in this passage is Jesus. The vereses 1-6 is a prophetic discription of Christ taken fromthe stars. There is no reason to think this has to do with the rapture of the church.

I have yet to find a place in the scripture where harpazo is used in any othe way. In context

I believe that there is a rapture, i believe that it will happen at the second coming of Christ found in Matthew 24:31.

my response; "If you look at the book Daniel when describing the six weeks, it author turns his attention to Israel during the 7th week, and the church is not mentioned.

This is hardly a defence of the pre-trib position. You believe that because the word church is not mention in Dan the church must be rapture. Was it used before in Daniel? You will not find the word church in the old teatiment. The word rapture is not mention anywhere in scripture, should we not accept it because this word rapture in not used in the bible? Why would Daniel use the word Church anyway? The word Church was not even used until the time of Jesus when He used it Matthew 16:18.

What is so hard to ignore about these passages? None of these present a viable arguement for the pre-trib position. If this is what you want to believe regardless, that is your prerogitive.

[lekh l'kha]

Got some time! Thanks lekh l'kha for saving me time!.

I have some questions about what you stated at the end of your post. You said that when the great tribulation arrives, there will be as many Christians that hold the pre position as there will be of those that hold the post. A theory i have comes from 2Thess 2:3 and 2tim 4:1. This falling away, thought that it could happen as the result of so many holding to the pre-trib position and then so many turning from Jesus or His church, as the result of the lack of creditability of those churchs who taught the pre position as fact and this not being reveal until Anti-Christ is revealed. I have also seen where people believe that 2Thess 2:3 and 2Tim:4: are connected to the Abomination that causes desolation, and that when that happens then many depart. However, this then would be a reference to the Jewish nation because of this new temple will be in Israel is where this event of abomination is to happen. The problem i have with this is that these passages are speaking about christians falling away from the Lord and at the time Paul wrote 2Thess most jews did not believe in Jesus. It speaks of departing from the faith in Jesus. Who do you say 2Thess 2:3 and 2Tim 4:1 are referring to? Anybody who has a thought on that, post it!

I've spoken about Thes.2: 4 before in another thread, but I don't want to take Parker1's thread off topic by speaking about it again here. But I don't agree that a belief in a pre-trib rapture or even in Replacement Theology will be the thing that causes Christians to fall away.

Many Replacement theologists are already backing the wrong horse when it comes to the devil's hatred of the Jews and his drive to kick them out of their land one last time, and I really don't know or even want to think about where that might lead them in the future.

But I think the falling away is something far deeper and has to do with whose sheep individual men and women are, which involves things like who we (any of us) place our trust in for doctrinal leadership - Jesus only, or our own chosen "Christian" leaders and "prophets"?

Whose sheep we are will decide who we place our trust in, ultimately. But pre-tribulationists like Dave Hunt I have respect for, even though I disagree completely with their belief in a pre-tribulation rapture, because people like Dave Hunt fight against false doctrine in many respects, even though the pre-tribulation belief itself, if it's not true, is false.

Ultimately, though, pre-tribulationists in general follow only one Shepherd - Jesus; and I think that the criteria that decides ultimately who falls away and who doesn't has everything to do with whose sheep individual men and women are, and who they as a result place their trust in. If we believe that pre-tribulationism is a lie, then we cannot meet one false eschatological doctrine with another false eschatological doctrine which damns pre-tribulationists to hell.

There are a lot of Christians from many differing persuasions who will become offended when they must suffer tribulation at the hand of the beast and his armies:

"But they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Afterward when affliction or persecution arises for the Word's sake, they are immediately offended." (Mar 4:17).

"Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another." (Mat 24:9-10).

I personally don't believe the Lord is only talking to Israel and the Jews here - but no matter, because whether only Israel and the Jews or whether Gentiles also, the principle remains the same - suffering tribulation for the sake of the name of Jesus offends many Christians - even John the baptist was offended by the fact that the Messiah had done nothing to deliver him from his chains:

"And coming to Him, the men said, John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, Are You He who should come, or do we look for another? And in the same hour He cured many of infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits. And He gave sight to many who were blind. And answering, Jesus said to them, Go and tell John what you have seen and heard; that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the gospel is proclaimed to the poor. And blessed is he who shall not be offended in Me." (Luk 7:20-23).

John had given his whole life to serve the Lord - and he served Him more faithfully than any other prophet who had come before John. But the Messiah who should have all authority in heaven and in the earth was the only one with enough power to deliver John from his chains - and yet He was doing NOTHING about John's plight.

It's for the reasons above that I believe the "name it and claim it" believers are in more danger of falling away in the great apostasy than the pre-trib believers, I think. And there are just as many Christians who believe in a post-trib rapture who will fall away, as there are pre-trib believing Christians - the criteria which decides whether we stand or fall has nothing to do with a pre/post trib belief, in my opinion, or even in a belief in Replacement Theology - it has everything to do with whose sheep we are, and who we as a result place our trust in.

Lekh.

[nikki1]

Blessings,

Some mention a pre-mid and post tribulation rapture? But I don't see in Scripture where the Lord or the New Testament writers gave us more than one option.

I was curious what the very early church fathers believed and taught regarding this in my quest for the truth and came across the linked to article below. Someone was involved in an internet discussion just as we are having, did his own research, and posted it on the internet of what the early church fathers believed regarding the catching away of the church.

Now, I propose each one could do their own research and come up with the same thing.

The early church leaders and fathers, from the time of John the Apostle to the time of Augustine, a period that covers over 300 years, all believed in a post tribulation catching away of the church.

After doing my own research, and after reading these quotes, in context, and seeing the concern for fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, warning them to stand firm in face of the persecution that may come to them, it is impossible for me to hold to a pre-tribulation belief. The early church did not have such a teaching. Who changed it??

http://www.pretribulationrapture.com/pretrib/article25c.htm

[Massorite]

Got some time! Thanks lekh l'kha for saving me time!.

I have some questions about what you stated at the end of your post. You said that when the great tribulation arrives, there will be as many Christians that hold the pre position as there will be of those that hold the post. A theory i have comes from 2Thess 2:3 and 2tim 4:1. This falling away, thought that it could happen as the result of so many holding to the pre-trib position and then so many turning from Jesus or His church, as the result of the lack of creditability of those churchs who taught the pre position as fact and this not being reveal until Anti-Christ is revealed. I have also seen where people believe that 2Thess 2:3 and 2Tim:4: are connected to the Abomination that causes desolation, and that when that happens then many depart. However, this then would be a reference to the Jewish nation because of this new temple will be in Israel is where this event of abomination is to happen. The problem i have with this is that these passages are speaking about christians falling away from the Lord and at the time Paul wrote 2Thess most jews did not believe in Jesus. It speaks of departing from the faith in Jesus. Who do you say 2Thess 2:3 and 2Tim 4:1 are referring to? Anybody who has a thought on that, post it!

I've spoken about Thes.2: 4 before in another thread, but I don't want to take Parker1's thread off topic by speaking about it again here. But I don't agree that a belief in a pre-trib rapture or even in Replacement Theology will be the thing that causes Christians to fall away.

Many Replacement theologists are already backing the wrong horse when it comes to the devil's hatred of the Jews and his drive to kick them out of their land one last time, and I really don't know or even want to think about where that might lead them in the future.

But I think the falling away is something far deeper and has to do with whose sheep individual men and women are, which involves things like who we (any of us) place our trust in for doctrinal leadership - Jesus only, or our own chosen "Christian" leaders and "prophets"?

Whose sheep we are will decide who we place our trust in, ultimately. But pre-tribulationists like Dave Hunt I have respect for, even though I disagree completely with their belief in a pre-tribulation rapture, because people like Dave Hunt fight against false doctrine in many respects, even though the pre-tribulation belief itself, if it's not true, is false.

Ultimately, though, pre-tribulationists in general follow only one Shepherd - Jesus; and I think that the criteria that decides ultimately who falls away and who doesn't has everything to do with whose sheep individual men and women are, and who they as a result place their trust in. If we believe that pre-tribulationism is a lie, then we cannot meet one false eschatological doctrine with another false eschatological doctrine which damns pre-tribulationists to hell.

There are a lot of Christians from many differing persuasions who will become offended when they must suffer tribulation at the hand of the beast and his armies:

"But they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Afterward when affliction or persecution arises for the Word's sake, they are immediately offended." (Mar 4:17).

"Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another." (Mat 24:9-10).

I personally don't believe the Lord is only talking to Israel and the Jews here - but no matter, because whether only Israel and the Jews or whether Gentiles also, the principle remains the same - suffering tribulation for the sake of the name of Jesus offends many Christians - even John the baptist was offended by the fact that the Messiah had done nothing to deliver him from his chains:

"And coming to Him, the men said, John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, Are You He who should come, or do we look for another? And in the same hour He cured many of infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits. And He gave sight to many who were blind. And answering, Jesus said to them, Go and tell John what you have seen and heard; that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the gospel is proclaimed to the poor. And blessed is he who shall not be offended in Me." (Luk 7:20-23).

John had given his whole life to serve the Lord - and he served Him more faithfully than any other prophet who had come before John. But the Messiah who should have all authority in heaven and in the earth was the only one with enough power to deliver John from his chains - and yet He was doing NOTHING about John's plight.

It's for the reasons above that I believe the "name it and claim it" believers are in more danger of falling away in the great apostasy than the pre-trib believers, I think. And there are just as many Christians who believe in a post-trib rapture who will fall away, as there are pre-trib believing Christians - the criteria which decides whether we stand or fall has nothing to do with a pre/post trib belief, in my opinion, or even in a belief in Replacement Theology - it has everything to do with whose sheep we are, and who we as a result place our trust in.

Lekh.

I agree you Lekh and I think a good question we should ask our selves is "What would cause a great falling away or departure from the faith". I believe that scripture gives us the answer to that question. When the antichrist comes what will he do?

He will come as a man of peace. He will come talking like a Lamb. He will come with great wonders. He will be assassinated and come back to life just as Jesus did. He will sit in the temple of God showing himself to be God. He will make peace between the Israelites and the Muslims. He will show to the world that he has great powers and he will cause many to look upon him and say "Who can go up against him". He will cause most of the worlds leaders to align their powers with his and then he will implement the mark of the beast because the antichrist wants all of mankind to worship him instead of God.

So does all of this sound like the wrath of God or a punishment of some sort?

Here is what Christians who believe in pre-trib are scared to death of. When the mark of the beast is implemented none of us will not be able to keep a job, have a bank account, buy a car, feed our children, live in a home, buy electricity,water or gas for heat, buy food in a grocery store or anywhere else for that matter or any other thing that would require money to be used to get it. The scripture is very clear "You shall not be able to buy nor sell unless you receive the mark of ths beast".

Folks the antichrist comes at the beginning of the seven years but according to scripture he doesn't bring any tribulation with him at first so how is it that we continue to ignore certain scriptures because we think the Wrath of God starts just as soon as the antichrist arrives on the world scene? Wake up and smell the coffee. There is not going to be seven years of wrath or tribulation. Only part of the seven years will be tribulation and or wrath.

[Rick-Parker]

Got some time! Thanks lekh l'kha for saving me time!.

I have some questions about what you stated at the end of your post. You said that when the great tribulation arrives, there will be as many Christians that hold the pre position as there will be of those that hold the post. A theory i have comes from 2Thess 2:3 and 2tim 4:1. This falling away, thought that it could happen as the result of so many holding to the pre-trib position and then so many turning from Jesus or His church, as the result of the lack of creditability of those churchs who taught the pre position as fact and this not being reveal until Anti-Christ is revealed. I have also seen where people believe that 2Thess 2:3 and 2Tim:4: are connected to the Abomination that causes desolation, and that when that happens then many depart. However, this then would be a reference to the Jewish nation because of this new temple will be in Israel is where this event of abomination is to happen. The problem i have with this is that these passages are speaking about christians falling away from the Lord and at the time Paul wrote 2Thess most jews did not believe in Jesus. It speaks of departing from the faith in Jesus. Who do you say 2Thess 2:3 and 2Tim 4:1 are referring to? Anybody who has a thought on that, post it!

I've spoken about Thes.2: 4 before in another thread, but I don't want to take Parker1's thread off topic by speaking about it again here. But I don't agree that a belief in a pre-trib rapture or even in Replacement Theology will be the thing that causes Christians to fall away.

Many Replacement theologists are already backing the wrong horse when it comes to the devil's hatred of the Jews and his drive to kick them out of their land one last time, and I really don't know or even want to think about where that might lead them in the future.

But I think the falling away is something far deeper and has to do with whose sheep individual men and women are, which involves things like who we (any of us) place our trust in for doctrinal leadership - Jesus only, or our own chosen "Christian" leaders and "prophets"?

Whose sheep we are will decide who we place our trust in, ultimately. But pre-tribulationists like Dave Hunt I have respect for, even though I disagree completely with their belief in a pre-tribulation rapture, because people like Dave Hunt fight against false doctrine in many respects, even though the pre-tribulation belief itself, if it's not true, is false.

Ultimately, though, pre-tribulationists in general follow only one Shepherd - Jesus; and I think that the criteria that decides ultimately who falls away and who doesn't has everything to do with whose sheep individual men and women are, and who they as a result place their trust in. If we believe that pre-tribulationism is a lie, then we cannot meet one false eschatological doctrine with another false eschatological doctrine which damns pre-tribulationists to hell.

There are a lot of Christians from many differing persuasions who will become offended when they must suffer tribulation at the hand of the beast and his armies:

"But they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Afterward when affliction or persecution arises for the Word's sake, they are immediately offended." (Mar 4:17).

"Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another." (Mat 24:9-10).

I personally don't believe the Lord is only talking to Israel and the Jews here - but no matter, because whether only Israel and the Jews or whether Gentiles also, the principle remains the same - suffering tribulation for the sake of the name of Jesus offends many Christians - even John the baptist was offended by the fact that the Messiah had done nothing to deliver him from his chains:

"And coming to Him, the men said, John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, Are You He who should come, or do we look for another? And in the same hour He cured many of infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits. And He gave sight to many who were blind. And answering, Jesus said to them, Go and tell John what you have seen and heard; that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the gospel is proclaimed to the poor. And blessed is he who shall not be offended in Me." (Luk 7:20-23).

John had given his whole life to serve the Lord - and he served Him more faithfully than any other prophet who had come before John. But the Messiah who should have all authority in heaven and in the earth was the only one with enough power to deliver John from his chains - and yet He was doing NOTHING about John's plight.

It's for the reasons above that I believe the "name it and claim it" believers are in more danger of falling away in the great apostasy than the pre-trib believers, I think. And there are just as many Christians who believe in a post-trib rapture who will fall away, as there are pre-trib believing Christians - the criteria which decides whether we stand or fall has nothing to do with a pre/post trib belief, in my opinion, or even in a belief in Replacement Theology - it has everything to do with whose sheep we are, and who we as a result place our trust in.

Lekh.

Exactly. It is not what we believe, it is in whom we believe. It there really is no pre-trib rapture, then there will be some who fall away. But those people were never saved to begin with. My faith, and the faith of every single Christian I personally know, is based on Christ and what he did at the Cross. Not some theory that not everyone can agree on.

That is one of the differences that I respect, that you don't talk down to or try and belittle those who are of a different understanding. I still believe that you are wrong , but I know the joy that you will know when you and I meet after the pre-trib rapture, when we have avoided the tribulation and the wrath of God.

Be blessed

[e lansing]

Whose sheep we are will decide who we place our trust in, ultimately. But pre-tribulationists like Dave Hunt I have respect for, even though I disagree completely with their belief in a pre-tribulation rapture, because people like Dave Hunt fight against false doctrine in many respects, even though the pre-tribulation belief itself, if it's not true, is false.

Right!. For the sake of arguement we have to asume that all who are born-again are Christians, right! We should also believe the best about how Christians are living for the Lord, right! I cannot critize What other Christian in whom i do not know,Right! Right. As for me i am reaching people every week with the Gospel of Christ and am making disciples of Christ as well. At any rate, I digress.

Ultimately, though, pre-tribulationists in general follow only one Shepherd - Jesus; and I think that the criteria that decides ultimately who falls away and who doesn't has everything to do with whose sheep individual men and women are, and who they as a result place their trust in.

Again, everybody who thinks they are saved/born-again beleive that Jesus is there savior. The issue at hand has nothing to do with if someone is saved or not. Unless you subscribe to OSAS. Then i can understand why all the refferences to Who are they have faith in.

If we believe that pre-tribulationism is a lie, then we cannot meet one false eschatological doctrine with another false eschatological doctrine which damns pre-tribulationists to hell.

Not sure what you are getting at here, however, hell is for those who lose there faith in Christ or have never had faith in Christ ever. The position one holds in terms of eschatological, has nothing to do with going to hell!

There are a lot of Christians from many differing persuasions who will become offended when they must suffer tribulation at the hand of the beast and his armies:

This is the whole point of my question to you!!

I personally don't believe the Lord is only talking to Israel and the Jews here - but no matter, because whether only Israel and the Jews or whether Gentiles also, the principle remains the same - suffering tribulation for the sake of the name of Jesus offends many Christians - even John the baptist was offended by the fact that the Messiah had done nothing to deliver him from his chains:

I absolutly and totally disagree with the opinion that Matthew 24 only applies to the Jewish nation!!!

It's for the reasons above that I believe the "name it and claim it" believers are in more danger of falling away in the great apostasy than the pre-trib believers, I think.

This is an odd statement. Most name-it-claim it people are pre-trib! Why do you seperate the two and what makes one more inclined then the other? The point you made about John proves that even the most devoult Christian can and will be offended if they have to face death,prison, rejection, or anything they preceived as negitive as the result of there faith in Christ. My concern has been for years now, will they turn or stay faithful after they had been taught for so long that the pre-trib position is fact. If time proves that position wrong, there goes the creditability of all those Churches. The CHurches will feel the backlash if time proves that that teaching was wrong. It still makes no since to me why you think one group is more inclined to fall away then the others. When it comes down to it, if they are not dieing to there flesh now, they may be incline to fall away in the face of danger.

And there are just as many Christians who believe in a post-trib rapture who will fall away, as there are pre-trib believing Christians - the criteria which decides whether we stand or fall has nothing to do with a pre/post trib belief, in my opinion, or even in a belief in Replacement Theology - it has everything to do with whose sheep we are, and who we as a result place our trust in.

every one who is saved or born-again beleive that they belong to Jesus and only Jesus knows who are His. Your comments causes me to wonder, do believe in the teaching Once Saved Always Saved? I do not! This thread is not for that topic, however a yes or no i think would be ok.

e