An Evaluation of Evidence for the Age of the Universe

[~candice~]

I've always assumed most Christians DID believe in a universe that is around 14 billion years old.

Oh I've been called heretic for saying that "yom" doesn't always mean a 24-hour day from people who think the world is about 7 thousands years old

*Heretic .

*No, I am not being serious. I like Yod .

Billion, shmillion, He's coming, get ready!

Right! Spot on Fez!

[Guest]

Pergamum

When evil incarnate's archangel; cast down from Heaven on high;

Re-established his throne in Pergamum; The eagle again rose to fly;

A phoenix risen from ashes; the kingdom which served as his seat;

In a land of fortified towers on earth; where Lucifer fled in retreat.

An empire arose; of nations which chose; to seek common cause in one name;

What was and was not; again was begot; and then the Antichrist came;

To claim for his own; the imperial throne; from the shadows the dark prince stepped;

The unburied dead got; the Messiah they sought; and still the Babylonians slept.

That Tale Is Utter Atheist Non-sense

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In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

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And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

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And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

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And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

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And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

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And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

'

And the evening and the morning were the first day.

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Genesis 1:1-5

The Truth

[spiritman]

http://www.reasons.o...age-of-universe

A group of Christians professionally trained in astronomical research has reviewed presentations by Drs. Danny Faulkner and Hugh Ross, covering arguments on the age of the universe. We appreciated the civility and respect of the discourse on a topic often generating more heat than light within the Christian community. Our analysis concentrates on arguments made by the speakers dealing with astronomical data and calculations, rather than about Biblical interpretation or biological evolution, because the former are our areas of professional expertise. We do note that, for example, one's view of Scriptural interpretation and theology will affect the range of models one would consider.

Our aim has been to assess the evidence for the age of the universe in the light of the arguments presented, using a standard scientific approach. Science seeks to make progress in understanding the physical world through inductive reasoning, rather than the watertight proofs found in mathematics. This means that scientific understanding advances through an enormous amount of focused, incremental efforts with many consistency checks in the context of a mutually accountable scientific community. Drawing sound conclusions about a general question such as the age of the universe cannot be done on the basis of one argument alone but requires many different independent experiments including tests that could falsify competing claims. Any conclusions, along with an evaluation of their certainty, are then made on the basis of the overall weight of the available evidence. There will often be some data that appear to disagree with the rest of the evidence; this does not automatically provide evidence for alternative hypotheses but often means that our theoretical understanding is not yet entirely complete.

Ross's arguments provide solid evidence that the universe is billions of years old. He presents several independent arguments, based on a wide range of data, indicating that the universe and most objects in it are much older than ten thousand years. The light-travel-time argument is particularly strong in both its basis in physical principles and its simplicity. Faulkner does not present evidence for a universe thousands of years old but rather makes claims for isolated inconsistencies in the case for great age. While it is common scientific practice to look for holes in well-established theories, the new contrary evidence must either be very strong to counter the existing evidence for the theory or else be supported by a new theory that readily explains both the new evidence and the old. We judge that the "inconsistencies" pointed out by Faulkner do not meet either of these criteria. In some instances the observations are completely consistent with our current understanding of these physical systems in the context of an old universe; in others, while universally accepted interpretations don't exist today and our knowledge is often still incomplete, such explanations are likely to be forthcoming as observations and theory progress. It is our professional judgment that the weight of the evidence overwhelmingly supports a universe that is billions of years old.

Gabriela Canalizo, Ph.D. (Associate Professor, Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of California, Riverside)

Gerald Cleaver, Ph.D. (Associate Professor, Department of Physics, Baylor University)

Kyle Cudworth, Ph.D. (Director, Yerkes Observatory, Professor, The University of Chicago)

Pamela L. Gay, Ph.D. (Executive Director Astrosphere New Media Association, Edwardsville,

Illinois)

Deborah Haarsma, Ph.D. (Chair and Associate Professor, Physics & Astronomy Department, Calvin College)

Bruce Hrivnak, Ph.D. (Professor, Department of Physics & Astronomy, Valparaiso University)

Stephen Kane, Ph.D. (NASA Exoplanet Science Institute, Caltech)

William Keel, Ph.D. (Professor, Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Alabama)

Patricia Reiff, Ph.D. (Director, Rice Space Institute, Rice University)

Aaron Romanowsky, Ph.D. (Associate Specialist, University of California Observatories)

Matthew S. Tiscareno, Ph.D. (Research Associate, Department of Astronomy, Cornell University)

Rogier Windhorst, Ph.D. (Regents' and Foundation Professor, School of Earth & Space Exploration, Arizona State University)

Donald York, Ph.D. (Professor, Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics, University of Chicago)

http://www.reasons.o...s-statement.pdf

Hal,

Here is one of the problems with using the speed of light to determine the age of the Universe. It has been proven in scientific experiments, that light can be be sped up, slowed down, and even stopped, when light passes through certain gases and other phenoma. check out these articles.

http://www.wnd.com/n...RTICLE_ID=39733

http://www.news.harv...2.18/light.html

http://www.space.com...top_010119.html

http://partners.nyti...sics-light.html

The time when the speed of light is used to measure the age of the Universe should have come to an end. it no longer is viable.

[Guest]

It Is Written

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1;31

And I Know It's True

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it:

and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. Ecclesiastes 3:14

Because It Is Written, God Is True

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:4

>>>>>()<<<<<

..... Well, scientists don't actually measure the true age of the universe through light, just a lower limit to the age. We actually get the age of the universe from measurements from the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (CMB). Still, we can place a ton of lower limits from a myriad of sources, such as measuring the temperature of white dwarfs and observing content of globular clusters, both of which are completely independent of the speed of light, and both put the age of the universe into the billions of years old category....

While Mankind's Questing Scientist Makes His Temporal Measurements From Flawed Lens Sited Within The Home-Star Base

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart,

so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. Ecclesiastes 3:11

Evolutionists Check Their Mythos To Mark Time In Some Fantasy Land

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men,

after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

But The LORD God Shines His Light Upon Both

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,

avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 1 Timothy 6:20

Declaring His Divine Power

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him;

and without him was not any thing made

that was made. John 1:1-3

His Grace

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,

because he hath not believed in the name

of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

And His Judgement

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

Coming Soon To All Of Mankind

For as the Father hath life in himself;

so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this:

for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil,

unto the resurrection

of damnation. John 5:26-29

>>>>>()<<<<<

Believe

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

And Be Blessed Beloved

When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? Psalms 8:3-4

Love, Joe

[HitmanR2]

I've always assumed most Christians DID believe in a universe that is around 14 billion years old.

Oh I've been called heretic for saying that "yom" doesn't always mean a 24-hour day from people who think the world is about 7 thousands years old

If God is "without age", it only stands to reason that some of his creations could be very old.

[Fez]

PS, yes MG, the majority of Christians do accept a universe that is billions of years old. However, from what I've read it has been pretty consistent that at least half of all Christians in the U.S. accept a universe/Earth that is 10,000 years old or younger.

Could you provide a link to that info?

He is coming, and if anyone is just standing around waiting, it might be better to just get out of the way.

"But we prefer, if it must be so, to be less wise in the scriptures, rather to be wise against them" - Turtellian

[Fez]

PS, yes MG, the majority of Christians do accept a universe that is billions of years old. However, from what I've read it has been pretty consistent that at least half of all Christians in the U.S. accept a universe/Earth that is 10,000 years old or younger.

Could you provide a link to that info?

He is coming, and if anyone is just standing around waiting, it might be better to just get out of the way.

"But we prefer, if it must be so, to be less wise in the scriptures, rather to be wise against them" - Turtellian

I found a Gallup poll that shows young earth creationism consistently in the 40's% range in the States, and roughly 75% of Americans are identified Christians. Essentially all creationists are Christian in the States, that means that over half of all Christians in the U.S. have consistently held the belief that the Earth is 10,000 years or younger.

Religioustolerance.org

Now Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination in the world. And practically all of them accept evolution, the big bang, and an old universe. These positions have been held by the late Pope John Paul II and has urged all Catholics (and Christians) to accept this. Combine this with Protestants and Orthodox who accept an old Earth and you have unequivocally the majority of Christians in the world accepting an old universe/Earth.

I dunno. If roughly 75% of Americans were true Christians I think the US would be utopia, and even I would want to live there.

It would be interesting to see how many members of Worthy would agree. I have a feeling we would be swimming against the tide you portray. And I can tell you that in the Christian circles I associate with here, nothing could be further from the truth.

And as I said earlier, not that it matters in the greater scheme of God's plan for us.

[spiritman]

Here is one of the problems with using the speed of light to determine the age of the Universe. It has been proven in scientific experiments, that light can be be sped up, slowed down, and even stopped, when light passes through certain gases and other phenomena.

The first link talks about how the speed of light is slowing down over time. This is simply not true the way they describe it. The reason for such differences is quite simply bad technology. But instead of getting boggled down into that, we can stick with pure science when talking about the speed of light changing over time. We can actually measure the speed of light in the past by observing the spectral lines of distant quasars and comparing them with near stellar objects! The results are that over the past 13 billion years, the speed of light, "c", has changed less than 1%! Not this exponential decay of alarming rates as pushed by the first link.

The second and third links talk about light being slowed down and even stopping! This is true, but when talking about the age of the universe derived from light, all it can do is push the age of the universe back making it older, not younger.

The last link is the most interesting, although I would have preferred to read what a real scientific journal, like Nature, has to say on this (which you can find if you take the time to look). However, to say that these experiments show that the universe is young, one must show how space, which is mostly made up of nothing and hydrogen gas (which would slow light down, not speed it up), actually increases the speed of light. There is a reason why no serious scientist has proposed that the speed of light in space is able to speed up enough to change our ideas about the age of the universe to peer-reviewed publications. Such propositions literally make no sense with the evidence.

The time when the speed of light is used to measure the age of the Universe should have come to an end. it no longer is viable.

Well, scientists don't actually measure the true age of the universe through light, just a lower limit to the age. We actually get the age of the universe from measurements from the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (CMB). Still, we can place a ton of lower limits from a myriad of sources, such as measuring the temperature of white dwarfs and observing content of globular clusters, both of which are completely independent of the speed of light, and both put the age of the universe into the billions of years old category.

Interesting about measuring the age of the Universe through the use of CMB's and temperature measurements, I haven't heard this before, most chatters I've come in contact with use the speed of light measurement. I"d like to thank you for that input, this is something new to me that I will look into. However I'd like to point out, that a very small fraction of our Universe has been explored. And therefore for a scientist to say for certain, that between Earth and stars that are Billions of light years away , that there is absolutely no phenomena, that would speed light up has me raising my eye brow a bit. We simply don't know enough about what's out there to boldy make that statement. Therefore in my humble opinion since the speed of light can be altered by outside forces, it would no longer be prudent to use it as a measuring stick for the age of the Universe.

[kuhugaboots]

limited knowledge and bad Assumptions based on lies and more assumptions, then 'proved' by more assumptions.

very sad that most people who call themselves "christians" have as their god such a impotent god.

God is not Impotent folks!

I put my money on eyewitnesses and recorded history and what has already been dug up only proves eye witnesses and recorded history!

They think they are smarter than eye witnesses. I mean how arrogant and ignorant can you get?

[Guest]

....I put my money on eyewitnesses and recorded history and what has already been dug up only proves eye witnesses and recorded history!....

Oh

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

So

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Amen!

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:10-11