When Does the Antichrist Appear?

[billiejean]

Daniel 8:23-25 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft (fraid, deceit, treachery)to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

Daniel 7:20-21 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spoke very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7:24-27 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Daniel 8:11 "Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host and by him was the daily sacrifice taken away.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at

the proper time.

If Antichrist is a power and not a man, then why are these verses describing him a a.....him?

[exrockstar]

The most glaring inconsistency of the rapture theory, is that the Antichrist will not appear until after the saints are caught away; seven years before the end of the world. Paul settles the entire matter for us in the first few verses of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of our gathering together unto Him] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin [Antichrist] be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (vs. 1-4).

The words of Paul are so plain that it is difficult to comment on them. How can they be plainer? Christ's coming will not take place "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed." Show these words to anyone not prejudiced by "private" interpretations, and he will say, "These verses say that the man of sin (Antichrist) is going to be revealed before Jesus comes."

Paul is not referring to some superman suddenly to appear 2,000 years after his epistles. He wrote, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (v. 7). While Paul lived, he combated the emerging spirit of the Antichrist. By the sixth century A.D., Antichrist had matured. The crowning act in the great drama of deception, however, occurs just before the return of Christ: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."' Verse 8. This clearly states that Antichrist will be destroyed when Christ comes. He does not arrive after the Second Advent.

And here's the crowning clarification in this whole thing. Revelation 20:4 assures us that some of those who are raised in the first resurrection will be those who refused to worship the beast and receive his mark! How completely this demolishes the futuristic school of prophetic interpretation is evident, for they claim that the emergence of the Antichrist and the imposition of his mark are to be looked for after the first resurrection and what they call the secret rapture.

So he/she has been here since the 6th century AD, but has still not been revealed?

Not for everyone, many still blind to the truth and they want to remain like that (Who have eyes and see not, And who have ears and hear not) Jeremiah 5:21.

The truth is in the Bible, not in the imagination of people; The truth is in the word of God, not in movies, not in private interpretations.

The antichrist is not a person but a power; political/religious power. The word

[lekh l'kha]

The antichrist is not a person but a power; political/religious power. The word

[Bold Believer]

Lek asks:

Why, if the antichrist is a spirit only, does the New Testament...

..... contrast Christ/antichrist consistently so:

One DESCENDS from the HIGHEST POSSIBLE PLACE - the throne of God in the highest heaven (Rev.19:11-21) and is called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords (1Tim.6:15; Rev.17:14, 19:16).

The other one ASCENDS from the LOWEST POSSIBLE PLACE - the bottomless pit, and is called the 8th king who is "of (the first seven) kings" (Rev.17:8-11) (the first seven kings who ruled over the first seven kingdoms or "heads" of the beast).

You're confusing Nero and other Roman Emperors with the mythical dictator, Lekh. The beast which ascends out of the bottomless pit is Rome. Remember, Rome gets her authority from Satan. (Rev 13) By the way, Nero is the 6th, Galba was the 7th who was only for a short time (assassinated by rival forces) and Vespasian was the 8th (his son was General Titus who led the military who destroyed Jerusalem by the decree of God).

One is THE IMAGE OF GOD (Heb1:3).

The other one is said to be THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST who has breath (Rev.13:15 - GreeK pneuma = "breath"). NOW you're confusing the Land Beast which is the Sanhedrin with the mythical dictator. The Land Beast is the one even pre-Mills call the False Prophet, so even in their thinking, he's not 'the Antichrist'. The Land Beast gives 'breath' to the Sea Beast (Roman Emperors, who demanded worship) in the sense that they made the Sea Beast "larger than life" to put it in modern terms. Basically, they helped Rome carry out her war against Believers. It has nothing to do with any so-called antichrist.

Faith in and the worship of the One results in FORGIVENESS FOR SINS AND ETERNAL LIFE (Joh.3:16).

Faith in and the worship of the other one results in JUDGMENT FOR SINS AND ETERNAL CONDEMNATION (Rev.14:7, 9-12):

"... saying with a great voice, Fear God..." (whose image is Christ) ".. and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters...

... saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev 14:7, 9-12). The Scripture you're using here refers to emperor worship, If one wanted to buy or sell, they had to burn incense to the genus of the Emperor, which was worship. Still nothing to do with 'antichrist'

The One comes WITH REAL POWER, WONDERS AND MIRACLES (all four gospels + the miracles, signs and wonders of His apostles).

The other one comes with "... the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned." (2Th 2:9-12).This refers to the Man of Sin or Lawlessness if you prefer, NOT antichrist. The man of sin doesn't come until OUR TIME. Antichrists were in John's day, although there are a few in the New Age sense today.

The One is A KING

Are you telling me that the ultimate fulfillment of the other one will not also be a king?:

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those dwelling on the earth will marvel, those whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits. And there are seven kings; five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition...

... And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast." (Rev 17:8-12) Seven kings or emperors, the one which is (Nero), the seventh is Galba, who continued a short time until assassinated by his rival who by default became the seventh (even though technically he was the eighth). The ten emperors (kings) are in order:

Julius, Augustus,Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero,,Galba, Otho, Vitellius and finally Vespasian, the father of Titus, General of the Roman Army which destroyed Jerusalem. There was one span of time during Rome had 4 emperors. This was right after the suicide of Nero.

"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise. And another shall arise after them. And he shall be different from the first, and he shall humble three kings. The little horn is Nero. Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius were all assassinated to make room for Nero who was outside the line of succession.

And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time. The Beast War against the fledgling Church 64-68 AD. Nero is the Emperor and personifies Rome.

But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end. And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him. Here is the end of the matter. The end of the matter is victory in Christ over the godless Roman beast and apostate Israel and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the world through the Gospel.

As for me Daniel, my thoughts troubled me much, and my face changed on me. But I kept the matter in my heart." (Dan 7:24-28).

So why, if the antichrist is a spirit only, does the New Testament contrast Christ/antichrist consistently so? It doesn't. It contrasts Christ to the paganism of Rome and shows Christ as victor over Rome (and the heathen emperors, including Nero.)

[lekh l'kha]

Lek asks:

Why, if the antichrist is a spirit only, does the New Testament...

..... contrast Christ/antichrist consistently so:

One DESCENDS from the HIGHEST POSSIBLE PLACE - the throne of God in the highest heaven (Rev.19:11-21) and is called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords (1Tim.6:15; Rev.17:14, 19:16).

The other one ASCENDS from the LOWEST POSSIBLE PLACE - the bottomless pit, and is called the 8th king who is "of (the first seven) kings" (Rev.17:8-11) (the first seven kings who ruled over the first seven kingdoms or "heads" of the beast).

You're confusing Nero and other Roman Emperors with the mythical dictator, Lekh. The beast which ascends out of the bottomless pit is Rome. Remember, Rome gets her authority from Satan. (Rev 13) By the way, Nero is the 6th, Galba was the 7th who was only for a short time (assassinated by rival forces) and Vespasian was the 8th (his son was General Titus who led the military who destroyed Jerusalem by the decree of God).

One is THE IMAGE OF GOD (Heb1:3).

The other one is said to be THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST who has breath (Rev.13:15 - GreeK pneuma = "breath"). NOW you're confusing the Land Beast which is the Sanhedrin with the mythical dictator. The Land Beast is the one even pre-Mills call the False Prophet, so even in their thinking, he's not 'the Antichrist'. The Land Beast gives 'breath' to the Sea Beast (Roman Emperors, who demanded worship) in the sense that they made the Sea Beast "larger than life" to put it in modern terms. Basically, they helped Rome carry out her war against Believers. It has nothing to do with any so-called antichrist.

Faith in and the worship of the One results in FORGIVENESS FOR SINS AND ETERNAL LIFE (Joh.3:16).

Faith in and the worship of the other one results in JUDGMENT FOR SINS AND ETERNAL CONDEMNATION (Rev.14:7, 9-12):

"... saying with a great voice, Fear God..." (whose image is Christ) ".. and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters...

... saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev 14:7, 9-12). The Scripture you're using here refers to emperor worship, If one wanted to buy or sell, they had to burn incense to the genus of the Emperor, which was worship. Still nothing to do with 'antichrist'

The One comes WITH REAL POWER, WONDERS AND MIRACLES (all four gospels + the miracles, signs and wonders of His apostles).

The other one comes with "... the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned." (2Th 2:9-12).This refers to the Man of Sin or Lawlessness if you prefer, NOT antichrist. The man of sin doesn't come until OUR TIME. Antichrists were in John's day, although there are a few in the New Age sense today.

The One is A KING

Are you telling me that the ultimate fulfillment of the other one will not also be a king?:

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those dwelling on the earth will marvel, those whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits. And there are seven kings; five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition...

... And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast." (Rev 17:8-12) Seven kings or emperors, the one which is (Nero), the seventh is Galba, who continued a short time until assassinated by his rival who by default became the seventh (even though technically he was the eighth). The ten emperors (kings) are in order:

Julius, Augustus,Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero,,Galba, Otho, Vitellius and finally Vespasian, the father of Titus, General of the Roman Army which destroyed Jerusalem. There was one span of time during Rome had 4 emperors. This was right after the suicide of Nero.

"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise. And another shall arise after them. And he shall be different from the first, and he shall humble three kings. The little horn is Nero. Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius were all assassinated to make room for Nero who was outside the line of succession.

And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time. The Beast War against the fledgling Church 64-68 AD. Nero is the Emperor and personifies Rome.

But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end. And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him. Here is the end of the matter. The end of the matter is victory in Christ over the godless Roman beast and apostate Israel and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the world through the Gospel.

As for me Daniel, my thoughts troubled me much, and my face changed on me. But I kept the matter in my heart." (Dan 7:24-28).

So why, if the antichrist is a spirit only, does the New Testament contrast Christ/antichrist consistently so? It doesn't. It contrasts Christ to the paganism of Rome and shows Christ as victor over Rome (and the heathen emperors, including Nero.)

Yeah - so the Roman Empire had a seventh and eight king - just like you said, and Vespasian, the 8th king and type of the final antichrist, destroyed Jerusalem and took the surviving Jews captive to Rome 666 years after Nebuchadnezzar took Jehoiachim, Daniel and the Jewish leaders captive to Babylon in 597 B.C (667 years minus one year - because Christ's birth was placed in the year 1 A.D by Pope Gregory when he set the dates of our calendar, and there is no year "0" between 1 B.C and 1 A.D in our calender)

I like your answer - because it shows clearly that all Biblical prophecy is linked to the interaction of Israel (or God's chosen ones) with "the nations" (and their political authorities), and this interaction takes place in time, which moves in cycles (along with the cycles of seasons, days, weeks, months and years), and therefore the Revelation of Jesus Christ can be seen as wheels within wheels of different fulfilments of the same prophecies - just like Christ's Olivet Discourse and the Old Testament prophecies of God's judgment of the nations whose armies will soon gather once more against Jersualem, can also be seen as wheels within wheels of different fulfilments of the same prophecies. And it's not surprising, because Christ transcends time and so does His Revelation.

The problem with not being able to see beyond one (A.D 70) fulfilment of Christ's Revelation (beyond His Revelation being fulfilled by the 8th Roman King and type of the final antichrist), is that the Revelation of Christ very clearly depicts that very same beast which ASCENDS from the lowest place, as being judged by Christ when He DESCENDS again from the highest place where He remains "until the time of the restoration of all things" (Act.3:20-21).

Again, Vespasian was not a spirit - he was an antichrist king of an antichrist kingdom - and therefore a Biblical type of the final antichrist (the 8th king) and his kingdom (the beast).

And the Revelation depicts the ten kings as being different from the seven, and the ten kings as reigning with the 8th king in his kingdom - just like the saints will reign with Christ in His Kingdom.

Lekh

[Bold Believer]

Lek asks:

Why, if the antichrist is a spirit only, does the New Testament...

..... contrast Christ/antichrist consistently so:

One DESCENDS from the HIGHEST POSSIBLE PLACE - the throne of God in the highest heaven (Rev.19:11-21) and is called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords (1Tim.6:15; Rev.17:14, 19:16).

The other one ASCENDS from the LOWEST POSSIBLE PLACE - the bottomless pit, and is called the 8th king who is "of (the first seven) kings" (Rev.17:8-11) (the first seven kings who ruled over the first seven kingdoms or "heads" of the beast).

You're confusing Nero and other Roman Emperors with the mythical dictator, Lekh. The beast which ascends out of the bottomless pit is Rome. Remember, Rome gets her authority from Satan. (Rev 13) By the way, Nero is the 6th, Galba was the 7th who was only for a short time (assassinated by rival forces) and Vespasian was the 8th (his son was General Titus who led the military who destroyed Jerusalem by the decree of God).

One is THE IMAGE OF GOD (Heb1:3).

The other one is said to be THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST who has breath (Rev.13:15 - GreeK pneuma = "breath"). NOW you're confusing the Land Beast which is the Sanhedrin with the mythical dictator. The Land Beast is the one even pre-Mills call the False Prophet, so even in their thinking, he's not 'the Antichrist'. The Land Beast gives 'breath' to the Sea Beast (Roman Emperors, who demanded worship) in the sense that they made the Sea Beast "larger than life" to put it in modern terms. Basically, they helped Rome carry out her war against Believers. It has nothing to do with any so-called antichrist.

Faith in and the worship of the One results in FORGIVENESS FOR SINS AND ETERNAL LIFE (Joh.3:16).

Faith in and the worship of the other one results in JUDGMENT FOR SINS AND ETERNAL CONDEMNATION (Rev.14:7, 9-12):

"... saying with a great voice, Fear God..." (whose image is Christ) ".. and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters...

... saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev 14:7, 9-12). The Scripture you're using here refers to emperor worship, If one wanted to buy or sell, they had to burn incense to the genus of the Emperor, which was worship. Still nothing to do with 'antichrist'

The One comes WITH REAL POWER, WONDERS AND MIRACLES (all four gospels + the miracles, signs and wonders of His apostles).

The other one comes with "... the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned." (2Th 2:9-12).This refers to the Man of Sin or Lawlessness if you prefer, NOT antichrist. The man of sin doesn't come until OUR TIME. Antichrists were in John's day, although there are a few in the New Age sense today.

The One is A KING

Are you telling me that the ultimate fulfillment of the other one will not also be a king?:

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those dwelling on the earth will marvel, those whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits. And there are seven kings; five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition...

... And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast." (Rev 17:8-12) Seven kings or emperors, the one which is (Nero), the seventh is Galba, who continued a short time until assassinated by his rival who by default became the seventh (even though technically he was the eighth). The ten emperors (kings) are in order:

Julius, Augustus,Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero,,Galba, Otho, Vitellius and finally Vespasian, the father of Titus, General of the Roman Army which destroyed Jerusalem. There was one span of time during Rome had 4 emperors. This was right after the suicide of Nero.

"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise. And another shall arise after them. And he shall be different from the first, and he shall humble three kings. The little horn is Nero. Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius were all assassinated to make room for Nero who was outside the line of succession.

And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time. The Beast War against the fledgling Church 64-68 AD. Nero is the Emperor and personifies Rome.

But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end. And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him. Here is the end of the matter. The end of the matter is victory in Christ over the godless Roman beast and apostate Israel and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the world through the Gospel.

As for me Daniel, my thoughts troubled me much, and my face changed on me. But I kept the matter in my heart." (Dan 7:24-28).

So why, if the antichrist is a spirit only, does the New Testament contrast Christ/antichrist consistently so? It doesn't. It contrasts Christ to the paganism of Rome and shows Christ as victor over Rome (and the heathen emperors, including Nero.)

Yeah - so the Roman Empire had a seventh and eight king - just like you said, and Vespasian, the 8th king and type of the final antichrist, destroyed Jerusalem and took the surviving Jews captive to Rome 666 years after Nebuchadnezzar took Jehoiachim, Daniel and the Jewish leaders captive to Babylon in 597 B.C (667 years minus one year - because Christ's birth was placed in the year 1 A.D by Pope Gregory when he set the dates of our calendar, and there is no year "0" between 1 B.C and 1 A.D in our calender)

I like your answer - because it shows clearly that all Biblical prophecy is linked to the interaction of Israel (or God's chosen ones) with "the nations" (and their political authorities), and this interaction takes place in time, which moves in cycles (along with the cycles of seasons, days, weeks, months and years), and therefore the Revelation of Jesus Christ can be seen as wheels within wheels of different fulfilments of the same prophecies - just like Christ's Olivet Discourse and the Old Testament prophecies of God's judgment of the nations whose armies will soon gather once more against Jersualem, can also be seen as wheels within wheels of different fulfilments of the same prophecies. And it's not surprising, because Christ transcends time and so does His Revelation.

The problem with not being able to see beyond one (A.D 70) fulfilment of Christ's Revelation (beyond His Revelation being fulfilled by the 8th Roman King and type of the final antichrist), is that the Revelation of Christ very clearly depicts that very same beast which ASCENDS from the lowest place, as being judged by Christ when He DESCENDS again from the highest place where He remains "until the time of the restoration of all things" (Act.3:20-21).

Again, Vespasian was not a spirit - he was an antichrist king of an antichrist kingdom - and therefore a Biblical type of the final antichrist (the 8th king) and his kingdom (the beast).

And the Revelation depicts the ten kings as being different from the seven, and the ten kings as reigning with the 8th king in his kingdom - just like the saints will reign with Christ in His Kingdom.

Lekh

Lekh...you're stuck on the term antichrist; antichrist is not mentioned in Revelation because he's not there. The Beast is a nation (Rome) personified in the men who led her, but most specifically Nero.

An antichrist is a Gnostic teacher, of which there were many. The spirit of antichrist is what the Christians had heard would come, the spirit of antichrist is the demonic power behind Gnosticism. The Gnostics came out of the church itself (I John) and not from Rome's infrastructure.

Imperial Rome served a purpose in the scheme of God and it began to decline after the death of Nero. It was ideologically defeated by the Christians who preached that Jesus Christ, and not Caesar, was Lord. Eventually the empire's own corruption and internal rot broke it into 10 Kingdoms, and those 10 Kingdoms became Christian countries.

The ten kings have no kingdom until they give their rule over to Imperial Rome for one period in time ('one hour'). They have one mind, and they make war against the Lamb (ideologically not literally, most of them were dead by the time of Christ's ministry, and none of them ever saw Jesus as a man) and Jesus defeats them. Caesar claimed to be Lord. Jesus IS Lord. Caesar is defeated by the fact of Christ's resurrection. Caesar dies, a new Caesar takes his place. When Christ died, He himself rose again by the power of God. Nero prevailed against the saints, but not the Lamb who created the saints.

The great final battle comes not in Revelation 19, but in Revelation 20 and it is over in a flash of fire. Satan becomes Gog, leader of Magog, surrounds the people of God (spoken of by John as the Holy City) and is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's Parousia. and cast into the Lake of Fire.

[lekh l'kha]

Lekh...you're stuck on the term antichrist; antichrist is not mentioned in Revelation because he's not there. The Beast is a nation (Rome) personified in the men who led her, but most specifically Nero.

An antichrist is a Gnostic teacher, of which there were many. The spirit of antichrist is what the Christians had heard would come, the spirit of antichrist is the demonic power behind Gnosticism. The Gnostics came out of the church itself (I John) and not from Rome's infrastructure.

Imperial Rome served a purpose in the scheme of God and it began to decline after the death of Nero. It was ideologically defeated by the Christians who preached that Jesus Christ, and not Caesar, was Lord. Eventually the empire's own corruption and internal rot broke it into 10 Kingdoms, and those 10 Kingdoms became Christian countries.

The ten kings have no kingdom until they give their rule over to Imperial Rome for one period in time ('one hour'). They have one mind, and they make war against the Lamb (ideologically not literally, most of them were dead by the time of Christ's ministry, and none of them ever saw Jesus as a man) and Jesus defeats them. Caesar claimed to be Lord. Jesus IS Lord. Caesar is defeated by the fact of Christ's resurrection. Caesar dies, a new Caesar takes his place. When Christ died, He himself rose again by the power of God. Nero prevailed against the saints, but not the Lamb who created the saints.

The great final battle comes not in Revelation 19, but in Revelation 20 and it is over in a flash of fire. Satan becomes Gog, leader of Magog, surrounds the people of God (spoken of by John as the Holy City) and is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's Parousia. and cast into the Lake of Fire.

BB, you're stuck on completely divorcing the Revelation of Jesus Christ from the rest of the prophetic books of the Bible. But the Revelation of Jesus Christ is (a) rooted in; and (b) complementary to the Old Testament prophecies, completing them.

This is why the symbolism of the Revelation is 100% consistent with the symbolism in the Old Testament:

1. A "beast" symbolizes a kingdom/empire (Dan.7:3-7).

2. "Mountains" symbolize great and powerful nations/kingdoms/empires (Dan.2:35; Ezekiel 35; Zec.4:7; Ps.125:1 etc etc).

3. Each "head" of the seven-headed beast of the Revelation is a "mountain" (Rev.17:9-10), and each "mountain" had a king - seven kings of seven empires - five had fallen by the time John received the Revelation (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece), one was in existence (Rome) and the seven was yet to come (Rev.17:10).

4. One of those "heads" was to received a mortal wound, which would be healed.

So I ask you, was the mortal wound dealt to the Assyrian Empire by the Babylonian king ever healed? And was the mortal wound dealt to the Babylonian Empire by the Persian king ever healed? How about the mortal wound to the Medo-Persian Empire dealt by the Alexander the Great of the Greeks? And how about the mortal wound dealt to the four provinces of the Greek Empire by Caesar?

Did the Western Roman Empire ever receive a mortal wound to its head through being conquered by another Empire? Did the "Holy Roman Empire" receive a mortal wound to its head by the 1530 Augsburg Confession which broke the political unity of the empire forever?

How about the mortal wound dealt to the Eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantine Empire) by the Ottoman-Turk Empire? Has it ever been healed?

Have any of these mortal wounds to the "heads" of the beast ever been healed? Will any one of them ever be healed?

How about the mortal wound dealt to the Ottoman-Turk Empire by the allied forces in WWI? Will the mortal wound to this "head" of the beast ever be healed? It seems to me its busy healing right now.

The beast that rises from the bottomless pit is also the 8th king/kingdom which is "of the seven" (Rev.17:8, 11).

Since we cannot divorce the Revelation of Christ from the prophetic books of the Old Testament, is there any Biblical type of this 8th king and his kingdom? Yes, there is, and there are many - but here's one:

"... you shall take up this song against the king of Babylon and say,

How the exacter, the gold gatherer has ceased! Jehovah has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers who struck peoples in wrath, a blow without turning away, ruling the nations in anger, a persecution without restraint.

All the earth is at rest and is quiet; they break out into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since you have fallen, no woodcutter will come up against us.

Hell from below is moved for you, to meet you at your coming. It stirs up the dead for you, all the he-goats of the earth. It has raised from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All of them shall speak and say to you, Are you also as weak as we? Are you like us? Your pride is brought down to the grave, and the noise of your harps. The maggot is spread under you, and the worms cover you.

How you are fallen from the heavens, O shining star, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart, I will go up to the heavens, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. I will go up above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.

Yet you shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the Pit.

Those who see you shall stare and closely watch you, saying, Is this the man who made the earth to tremble; who shook kingdoms; who made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed its cities; who did not open the house for his prisoners?" (Isa 14:4-17).

BB, you will never understand these things correctly until you stop trying to divorce the Revelation of Jesus Christ from the prophetic books of the old Testament, and also until you stop trying to force cycles of time, history and prophetic fulfilment into one particular period in time, and one particular period in time only.

Daniel 7 tells you very clearly that the final antichrist kingdom will have a king over it.

The gnostic philosophy of the early Christian period which denied that Jesus is the Son of God in the flesh was not the "first and the last" antichrist philosophy or religion:

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He who denies the Father and the Son is antichrist. Everyone who denies the Son neither has the Father. The one confessing the Son also has the Father." (1Jn 2:22-23)

The Muslims are telling you right now that the true Christ is going to tell you that the above verses are a lie. It just so happens that in Islamic vs Christian theology and eschatology, the Islamic Christ is the Bible's antichrist and the Bible's antichrist is the Islamic Christ.

And it just so happens that Rev.13:2 gives us the same animal symbols for the 8th kingdom that Daniel 7 gives for the Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek Empires - at the very least suggesting to us that perhaps we should consider the possibility that the 8th kingdom and its king will rise out of the same territories which those ancient kingdoms/empires incorporated. Or is this just a coincidence of history?

The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the prophecies of God transcend time, BB - they are multidimensional. You can't look at the prophecies of the Bible from the perspective of a one-dimensional creature who can only view time, history and Biblical prophecy as moving along a continuous horizontal line, from start to finish, and with Biblical prophecy being fulfilled once at one period in time only, and never again - the mind of God is way beyond that approach to Biblical prophecy - because the Omniscient God we believe in knew the end from the beginning before all time, therefore He is able to give a prophecy about the future which would be fulfilled not only in a specific time period, but also beyond that time period, in another time period (future to the first time period). The cycles of seasons, days, weeks, months and years are cycles of time which occur inside eternity, and the cycles of history - the history of the interaction of Israel with the nations - occurs inside cycles of time. Biblical prophecy is linked to these cycles.

Why do you limit God so by divorcing the Revelation of Jesus Christ and applying all the prophecies of God (including the Revelation of Jesus Christ) to the A.D 30 to A.D 400/500 period only? What about the rest of "time"? Does God not speak apocalyptically to any of His saints except the few generations who would lived between A.D 30 and A.D 400/500?

Lekh

[other one]

There are three different beasts in Revelation. One from the sea, or many waters, one from the land, and one from the bottomless pit. The one from the bottomless pit is most likely a fallen angel; his name is Apollyon, or in American English Apollo.

[lekh l'kha]

There are three different beasts in Revelation. One from the sea, or many waters, one from the land, and one from the bottomless pit. The one from the bottomless pit is most likely a fallen angel; his name is Apollyon, or in American English Apollo.

Or else a man whom Satan has entered (either view could be true):

"And Satan entered into Judas, surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the Twelve." (Luk 22:3).

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." (Joh 17:12).

"Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition," (2Th 2:3).

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those dwelling on the earth will marvel, those whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." (Rev 17:8).

Lekh

[1Mind1Spirit]

BB,

The way yer a tellin' it, Rev. already happened.

If that is so, when exactly did the thousand years begin and end that "they" reigned with Christ?

That would have been the first ressurrectuion,wouldn't it?

Paul, said it hadn't happened yet when he was here.

So, please tell me when that was.

And what am I waiting for? Is this the little season that satan is loose?

Also if it is as you say, Jesus is no longer at God's right hand, but here somewhere ruling.

Where ? ? ?

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or Lo, he is there; believe him not:

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Edited June 7, 2010 by 1Mind1Spirit