Was AD 70 the Parousia?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, ENOCH2010.

PGA I had never heard of the preterist view of scripture until a couple years ago,I guess I have led a sheltered life. May I ask what is your view of the second comming, is the Lord comming back bodily again, or is everything in the past?

Hi Enoch,

I was once in the Dispensational pre-trib, pre-millenial camp.

I tend to favor a full Preterist view but I'm still open to a partial Preterist view of Scripture. I believe every passage of Israel of old has been fulfilled in the 1st century. I believe that Scripture supports this and I believe that history supports this. That would mean that we now live in the kingdom age, the eternal kingdom, and those on earth worship the King spiritually, just like they did in the 1st century church on earth. But Paul said our citizenship is in heaven.

Whether there is another coming of Christ (Revelation 20-22) I don't currently believe so, and so far I have not seen the biblical evidence to support this, but I do believe that when we die we still are either in the presence of the Lord or separated from His presence, depending on whether by God's mercy Christ Jesus is our Lord or not.

No, I do not believe the Lord is coming back bodily again. He came bodily when He came to Israel for it took a man, the Second Adam, to reconcile man again to God with a new and better covenant and fulfillment of the first.

Just like you, I'm sure, and just like the 1st century church did I believe that I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling for I believe God is working in me, as He did in them.

Peter

Thanks for the answer PGA. I can see that the partial preterist view may have some merit,as in with the destruction of the temple. A lot of the Revelation sounds as if it is a repeat of history,with a third temple being built,but some of the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet.The 1000 year reign for example, I see no time in history or at present that describes the lifestyle on Earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. With that fact alone I have to dismiss the preterist view as being not Biblical.

I find it ironic that full preterists usually have their proponents among those who believe in amillennialism or at least postmillennialism, and are usually those who have a viewpoint using an allegorical interpretation of the Bible, while I have a partial preterist view, but I am definitely premillennial, and I have a viewpoint using a historical-grammatical interpretation of Scripture. In fact, I also might be justly accused of being a hyperliteralist! Isn't that strange?

I, too, used to be in the pretribulational rapturistic, premillennial camp, although I was never much of one for dispensationalism, especially the radical full dispensational position. However, in throwing out the pretribulational rapture, I did not "throw the baby out with the bathwater." I am still a die-hard premillennialist. For me, it is the only general, eschatological viewpoint that makes any sense. And, from that perspective, I'm right there with you regarding the Temple and the Millennium.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Israelite.

I've never seen anything in the Bible presented to me by the Holy Spirit as "The Parousia".

I DO know that it means "Presence" and I also know that Christ is present in me and I in His presence, so I don't follow how it would be "future" (unless of course someone hasn't received the presence of Christ dwelling in them...)

(1Th 2:19)

for what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? are not even ye before our Lord Jesus Christ in his presence?

I understand the Parousia of Christ for I am in His Presence, so I'll just stick with what I know

Actually, "parousia" is a Greek word that means "being near." When it is talking about the Master Yeshua` haMashiach (the Lord Jesus the Messiah or the Christ), it is talking about when He COMES to "be near." Thus, it is often translated as His "coming" in the KJV. Since He has not yet arrived physically as was promised in Acts 1:9-11, it is yet to happen. "Parousia" is not quite the same as "sh'kiynah" in Hebrew. It's more than just His "presence." It has to do with His "arrival."

1 Thes. 2:19 is a good case in point:

1 Thessalonians 2:19

19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

KJV

Your usage of Young's Literal Translation may be messing with your mind. Originally, Robert Young based his translation (1862) on the Received Text. However, Young based the revision of his translation (1887) on the Westcott & Hort text (1885), which was corrupt and unreliable!

Wikipedia has a good article on the YLT and mentions the Translation Philosophy:

The Literal Translation is unusual in that, as the name implies, it is a strictly literal translation of the original Hebrew and Greek texts. The Preface to the Second Edition states, If a translation gives a present tense when the original gives a past, or a past when it has a present; a perfect for a future, or a future for a perfect; an a for a the, or a the for an a; an imperative for a subjunctive, or a subjunctive for an imperative; a verb for a noun, or a noun for a verb, it is clear that verbal inspiration is as much overlooked as if it had no existence. THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE VOID BY THE TRADITIONS OF MEN. [Emphases in original.]

Therefore, Young used the present tense in many places in which other translations use the past tense, particularly in narratives. For example, the YLT version of Genesis begins as follows: 1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth — 2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, 3 and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is. 4 And God seeth the light that it is good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness, 5 and God calleth to the light 'Day,' and to the darkness He hath called 'Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day one. 6 And God saith, 'Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.' 7 And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters which under the expanse, and the waters which above the expanse: and it is so. 8 And God calleth to the expanse 'Heavens;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day second. 9 And God saith, 'Let the waters under the heavens be collected unto one place, and let the dry land be seen:' and it is so. 10 And God calleth to the dry land `Earth,' and to the collection of the waters He hath called 'Seas;' and God seeth that good. 11 And God saith, 'Let the earth yield tender grass, herb sowing seed, fruit-tree (whose seed in itself) making fruit after its kind, on the earth:' and it is so. 12 And the earth bringeth forth tender grass, herb sowing seed after its kind, and tree making fruit (whose seed in itself) after its kind; and God seeth that good; 13 and there is an evening, and there is a morning — day third.^[1]

Young's Literal Translation in the 1898 Edition also consistently renders the Hebrew Tetragrammaton (divine name) throughout the Old Covenant/Testament as "Jehovah", instead of the traditional practice of representing the Tetragrammaton in English as "LORD" in small capitals, but editions prior to 1898 do say "LORD" in small capitals.

The main problem with that translation method is that WE DON'T TALK THAT WAY! And, since we talk "backwards" grammatically (if you want to think of it that way), his translation serves only to CONFUSE us as to the meaning of the text!

I would also find fault with his practice of rendering the Hebrew Tetragrammaton as "Jehovah." While the consonants are relatively correct (as long as the "J" is pronounced like the German "J," a "Y" sound), the vowel pointing usually employed for the Tetragrammaton did NOT go with the Tetragrammaton itself! The vowel pointing was for the word "Adonai," which was typically said by Jewish readers instead of trying to pronounce the Sacred Name, haShem, and running the risk of "taking His Name in vain!" The vowel pointing served as a reminder to the reader to say "Adonai" when coming to the Name.

Just be careful with that translation! Almost ANY other would be better. Personally, I find that there is NO perfect translation; however, I appreciate the KJV best for its honest approach to a word-for-word translation, as much as was possible in that time. And, although there are some significant errors in both, for reading long passages comfortably, I like the NIV and the Complete Jewish Bible.

[PGA]

Hi Danielzk, Israelite,

Danielzk, I don't have time to address your posts for another week or so what with being back to work, but I noticed this is the second time you have used the European Union as the beast of Revelation and have never responded to my questions to you concerning this interpretation. I also asked you who is this 'Babylon', the great city since it is guilty of persecuting the prophets and saints.

PS. I'll give you what I feel from Scripture and history is a correct interpretation of some of Revelation concerning the beast, the woman, and Babylon the Great City later.

Israelite, so far I'm in agreement with much of what you have to say concerning the reference to the Lord's coming as being a reference to the presence of the Lord and prophecy as being already fulfilled concerning Israel. Much of both OT and NT that speaks of the coming judgment on Israel in which figurative/apocalyptic language is used is missed by the literalist. The futurist ignores the time passages, figures of speech, references to tenses and which person (I, you, we, they, us) is being addressed. By doing this what is actually being said is missed and some foreign interpretation is read into the text that cannot be justified because God is the best interpreter of His word. Anything can be read in if you make any private interpretation applicable.

Peter

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Israelite.

In any case, to answer the OP, the Olivet prophecy where Jesus warns the first century church of the coming destruction to the wicked city Jerusalem, was fulfilled in AD 70 when Titus of the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem.

This is the curse promised in the O.T.

The rest of what Jesus promised concerning sending His disciples into the four corners of the earth to gather together His elect by preaching the Gospel, has been going on for 2000 years.

That should about cover that

Peace

Let's get this out of the way, first, and then I'm going to address your previous post:

A little history lesson. The Romans did NOT "destroy Jerusalem" in A.D. 70. They destroyed the TEMPLE in A.D. 70. It was not until A.D. 135 that they destroyed Jerusalem (and much of the Land).

[Fez]

Never jump to conclusions from the data received from the carnal mind. Only use the Word of God and then we can know His mind and what He "MEANS". We can now see from all the precedent set before us by God, the key to understanding scriptures. Scripture always interprets itself.

This is called "exegesis" folks. Not theology. It is how God reveals. He directs us to the scriptures so that we can know these things. In this manner, everything will soon begin to fit together so perfectly that there will be no question, only answers

I am sure the many pastors, elders, church leaders, doctors, and other learned people on Worthy would agree with this statement.

[Guest]

In

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:9-14

Coming

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:26-27

Hallelujah~!

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:25-29

Maranatha~!

[Montana Marv]

The lion will eat straw like the ox.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rjp34652]

The key to understanding eschatology is primarily in how the timeline affects the Scriptures and moreover, what Jesus said would (and did) happen. First, we need to remember what the word eschatology means. Study of last things. Eschatos means last, specifically, last in order. If I list 1.2.3.4.5, the number 5 is eschatos.

So when a biblical figure speaks of last, he's not necessarily referring to the parousia. Likewise with the words 'end' and 'world'. For example the phrase in the KJV used in Matthew 24 'end of the world' is actually end of the age (aeon). Sometimes, it's difficult to gather whether the Parousia or simply the end of an age is being spoken of.

Parable of the Marriage Feast

1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 �The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 �And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 �Again he sent out other slaves saying, �Tell those who have been invited, �Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.�� 5 �But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 �But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 �Then he said to his slaves, �The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 �Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.� 10 �Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

11 �But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he said to him, �Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?� And the man was speechless. 13 �Then the king said to the servants, �Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.� 14 �For many are called, but few are chosen.�

From the context we can derive:

Israel was the one invited to the wedding feast. Jesus tells us 'they were unwilling to come.'

The inviting king is God.

The servants are the prophets and apostles.

The prophets (and later the apostles and saints) were mistreated and killed.

God sent His armies, destroyed the murderers and set their city on fire.

God then sends out his servants to gather in all kinds of people.

Then finally God judges the dinner guests and casts out the unfit.

This is an eschatological parable and alludes to the coming destruction of Jerusalem, the subsequent gathering of the nations and then the last (judgment) day.

In Mt 23:27-39, Jesus castigates the Scribes and Pharisees

27"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.

28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,

30 and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'

31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

39"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"

This prophecy refers strictly to the destruction of Jerusalem. (When Jesus uses the name of the city here, he seems to be using it much the same way as we do when we say "Washington did so and so," using the name of the city to refer to the government seated there, in this case, the Sanhedrin.) The destruction of Jerusalem signifies the end of the age of types and shadows and the beginning of the Messianic era with truths and realities realized in and through the Lord Jesus. Notice the stark stern statement in v 36: ALL THESE THINGS WILL COME UPON THIS GENERATION (the one to whom he was speaking).

Luke 21 is the Mt 24 parallel passage which is much plainer concerning Jerusalem and her fate. Both are eschatological to the end of the age and both give a timeline.

1. Persecution first (another parallel to this is Rev 13 the beast making war on the saints for 3.5 times [years]) which was the Neronic persecution 64-68 AD

2. False Christs saying that they are THE Christ.

3. Then wars and rumors of wars: Civil war in Rome after the death of Nero

4. Nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom; Unrest through the whole Empire

5. Earthquakes, plagues and famines and signs in the heavens (basically he hints at what he reveals totally to John in Revelation)

6. The siege of Jerusalem and the days of vengeance as the city is trampled by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled

7. The Son of Man coming on a cloud with great power and much glory

It's the last phrase which leads a lot of people to believe that this means the Parousia (Second Coming). It doesn't, and there are firm reasons why it doesn't.

Reason #1: Jesus uses a totally different word for coming...erchomai, which can mean either come OR go, and furthermore can mean to establish or make something known (in this case, that He is Messiah, a fact established by His actions).

Reason #2: There are survivors of the event. At the Second Coming, there are no survivors, the earth and all of its works are burned up (2 Peter 3:10, Rev 20:9)

Reason #3: There are things which occur after this shekinah-glory cloud appearing. The LORD is showing himself strong and mighty here, not destroying the former earth. He's about to make his enemies his footstool (Ps. 110)

Reason #4: It would be THAT GENERATION which would see all the things He spoke of come to pass. He spoke all of the dire warnings to those who would be affected by them in the time-span of that generation. A mere 40 years or so after He spoke those words, IT ALL CAME TO PASS.

A full preterist will try to make the argument that the AD 70 events constituted the Second Coming. The Greek words and the events which take place in 70 AD don't bear that out though. There IS a Second Coming, and it occurs after the Millennium, the Second Coming and Judgment Day are the same event. To Believers, it's gathering together to Jesus, a completion of the Body of Christ. To the Unbelievers, it's fire falling from the sky to burn up everything and a date with a God in whom they refused to believe upon, a look at the Devil they followed and a consignment to the Lake of Fire with that Devil and all the fallen angels.

To Believers, it's a judgment of reward or no reward followed by eternal life (I Cor 3), to Unbelievers it's a judgment of works followed by eternal death.

How lame is this?

If Jesus had returned, it would have been in all the papers. From one end of the earth to the other, everyone would have known. Why waste time with this nonsense?

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[PGA]

PGA I had never heard of the preterist view of scripture until a couple years ago,I guess I have led a sheltered life. May I ask what is your view of the second comming, is the Lord comming back bodily again, or is everything in the past?

Hi Enoch,

I was once in the Dispensational pre-trib, pre-millenial camp.

I tend to favor a full Preterist view but I'm still open to a partial Preterist view of Scripture. I believe every passage of Israel of old has been fulfilled in the 1st century. I believe that Scripture supports this and I believe that history supports this. That would mean that we now live in the kingdom age, the eternal kingdom, and those on earth worship the King spiritually, just like they did in the 1st century church on earth. But Paul said our citizenship is in heaven.

Whether there is another coming of Christ (Revelation 20-22) I don't currently believe so, and so far I have not seen the biblical evidence to support this, but I do believe that when we die we still are either in the presence of the Lord or separated from His presence, depending on whether by God's mercy Christ Jesus is our Lord or not.

No, I do not believe the Lord is coming back bodily again. He came bodily when He came to Israel for it took a man, the Second Adam, to reconcile man again to God with a new and better covenant and fulfillment of the first.

Just like you, I'm sure, and just like the 1st century church did I believe that I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling for I believe God is working in me, as He did in them.

Peter

Thanks for the answer PGA. I can see that the partial preterist view may have some merit,as in with the destruction of the temple. A lot of the Revelation sounds as if it is a repeat of history,with a third temple being built,but some of the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet.The 1000 year reign for example, I see no time in history or at present that describes the lifestyle on Earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. With that fact alone I have to dismiss the preterist view as being not Biblical.

Hi Enoch,

If you are referring to the third temple as the one mentioned and being measured in Revelation 11:1, I believe that the Bible and history already confirms that this reference is to the 2nd temple that still existed before the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Where do you ever see a third temple mentioned in Revelation other than the spiritual temple that is in heaven and on earth that is made up of the body of believers who worship God? We tabernacle with God in spirit and in truth here on earth.

Revelation 21:22

New International Version (NIV)

²² I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

There are various ways of looking at verse 2 concerning the Gentiles, whether or not you come at it from a futurist, a partial or full Preterist position. From a fully Preterist position Jerusalem was surrounded by armies (the Roman/Gentile armies - Luke 21:20) for 42 months (Luke 21:24). The Gentiles tramples over the holy city for this period of time. That fulfilled the time of the Gentiles as it concerned old covenant Israel.

The problems with a futurist position are many, especially for those who are literalists. Luke wrote in Luke 21:22-24,

Luke 21:22-24

New International Version (NIV)

²² For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. ²³ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. ²⁴ They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The time of fulfillment is in fulfillment of all that has been written concerning OT Israel. The wrath is against this people, OT Israel. They will fall by the SWORD, a medieval weapon for an OT people. The armies spoken of in verse 21 are the Roman armies.

But do you see the relationship between the times of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:1-3?

In Jesus' parables you will find over and over again the theme of judgment and on OT Israel. In Luke 20 Jesus tells the parable of the vineyard and the wicked servants. I believe the vineyard represents OT Israel and the tenants/servants represent the people of the covenant - the wicked servants who were not faithful to that covenant. They are the ones who killed the Lord as well as all those who He had ever sent to them (see 1 Thessalonains 2:15-16). In many of these parables we see words to the effect:

Luke 20:19

New International Version (NIV)¹⁹ The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.

In the parable of the Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22 talks about the wedding banquet the King prepared for His Son. The servants who had been invited paid no attention to the invitation, instead these wicked servants seized His servants (the Prophets), mistreated and killed them. The King was enraged and sent His army (the Roman armies) and destroyed these murderers and BURNED THEIR CITY. Then others are invited to the banquet.

Matthew 22:15

New International Version (NIV)

Paying the Imperial Tax to Caesar

¹⁵Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words.

It all relates to 1st century Israel.

Matthew 26:59-64

New International Version (NIV)

⁵⁹ The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. ⁶⁰ But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.

Finally two came forward ⁶¹ and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”

⁶² Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” ⁶³ But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

⁶⁴ “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”^[a]

Footnotes:

1. Matthew 26:64 See Psalm 110:1; Daniel 7:13.
   

Jesus is speaking to people of His generation and telling them that they will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven. This is the theme of Matthew 24:30-31 as well as Daniel 7:13-14. This generation will not pass. In Revelation 5 we see the scene in heaven of the Lamb who is worthy to open the seals that were sealed in the time of Daniel, and we see all the souls who have been slain for the word of God and their good testimony and they cry out to God to bring justice and avenge their blood. The scenes in Revelation keep shifting from the heavenly to the earthly scenes, but those saints keep asking:

Revelation 6:10-11

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁰ They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” ¹¹ Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,^[a] were killed just as they had been.

These are the OT saints, the prophets of old and the Lord says to them to wait a little longer until their fellow servants, the NT saints, were killed, just as Jesus said in Matthew 23:34. Notice the time line throughout the NT is always soon, quick, in a little while where ever you read in the Epistles and gospels. The theme of a genearation - 40 years - is how long.

The avenging of this blood is a constant theme in throughout the Bible especially in Revelation and it concerns vengeance on OT Israel (Babylon) and the harlot, the great city (OT Jerusalem), just as Jesus said it would. The beast the woman rides is the Roman Empire in all its power and the woman is OT Jerusalem, Babylon the Great, the city of power that corrupted the earth with her harlotry. She is the only one who fits the bill of being guilty (per God's word -) of all the blood of the prophets and saints. Her house, the house of OT Israel is left to her desolate. This last statement can be expanded on greatly, but I don't have much time to do this at the moment.

Matthew 23:36

New International Version (NIV)³⁶ Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation

Matthew 23:30-32

New International Version (NIV)

³⁰ And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ ³¹ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. ³² Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

Matthew 23:35-38

New International Version (NIV)

³⁵ And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. ³⁶ Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

³⁷ “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. ³⁸ Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Luke 11:47-53

New International Version (NIV)

⁴⁷ “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. ⁴⁸ So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. ⁴⁹ Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ ⁵⁰ Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, ⁵¹ from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

⁵² “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

⁵³ When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions,

Revelation 8:3-5

New International Version (NIV)

³ Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. ⁴ The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. ⁵ Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Judgment in answer to their prayers, the prayers of the OT and NT saints.

Revelation 11:8-14

New International Version (NIV)

⁸ Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. ⁹ For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. ¹⁰ The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

¹¹ But after the three and a half days the breath^[a] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. ¹² Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

¹³ At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

I am leaning towards these two great prophets as representing (figuratively) the Law and the Prophets.

Revelation 11:18-19

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁸ The nations were angry,

and your wrath has come.

The time has come for judging the dead,

and for rewarding your servants the prophets

and your people who revere your name,

both great and small—

and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

¹⁹ Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

God's law in now in the heavenly Jerusalem, the spiritual building/temple of His people.

Revelation 12:13-14

New International Version (NIV)

¹³ When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. ¹⁴ The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

The church was taken out of Jerusalem before the siege and surrounding of that city that lasted 3 1/2 years. They fled to Pella because they heeded the instructions of the Lord (Matthew 24:15-20.

There are two women spoken of in Revelation, OT Israel and NT Israel. Satan used the Roman army/authority (the beast) to pursue the woman (the NT Israel of God, the faithful and true). Again we have the persecution of the saints and throughout the NT their cries to God to save them, and we have the blood of the saints as two constant themes. The harlot woman has compromised and sided with Rome and she has special privileges that Rome did not grant to others in that Israel was allowed to keep her religious system. Jews from all over the world came to Jerusalem at Passover. Josephus records about 1 million on one such occasion.

Revelation 16:5-7

New International Version (NIV)

⁵ Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:

“You are just in these judgments, O Holy One,

you who are and who were;

⁶ for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”

⁷ And I heard the altar respond:

“Yes, Lord God Almighty,

true and just are your judgments.”

God brought His judgment on Jerusalem and gave them the same blood to drink that they had shed on the prophets and holy people.

Revelation 17:3-6

New International Version (NIV)

³ Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. ⁴ The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. ⁵ The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

babylon the great

the mother of prostitutes

and of the abominations of the earth.

⁶ I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

This is the other woman I was telling you about, apostate, adulterous Israel, the mother of prostitutes. As Jesus said in Matthew 23, she is the one guilty of killing and shedding all the blood of the righteous, including those who He sent after He died.

Revelation 18:19-21

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁹ They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,

where all who had ships on the sea

became rich through her wealth!

In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

²⁰ “Rejoice over her, you heavens!

Rejoice, you people of God!

Rejoice, apostles and prophets!

For God has judged her

with the judgment she imposed on you.”

The Finality of Babylon’s Doom

²¹ Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence

the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,

never to be found again.

OT Israel and Jerusalem were never to be found again. The covenant people who committed adultery were judged, killed and taken captive to other nations. Their temple and city were destroyed and their sacrificial system was never to be repeated because God had supplied the better sacrifice, the everlasting one!

Revelation 18:24-19:3

New International Version (NIV)

²⁴

Revelation 18:24-19:3

New International Version (NIV)

²⁴In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,

of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Threefold Hallelujah Over Babylon’s Fall

19 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:

“Hallelujah!

Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

² for true and just are his judgments.

He has condemned the great prostitute

who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.

He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

³ And again they shouted:“Hallelujah!

The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”

”

Threefold Hallelujah Over Babylon’s Fall

19 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:

“Hallelujah!

Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

² for true and just are his judgments.

He has condemned the great prostitute

who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.

He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

³ And again they shouted:

“Hallelujah!

The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”

So throughout Revelation we see this unfolding and snap shot between heaven and earth and this progression of God's judgment on this people, just like was promised throughout the OT in the curses if they abandoned God and the covenant they made with Him. We see all kinds of figuratively language that needs to be unpacked in light of the OT passages that it alludes to.

Just as Daniel was told to seal up the vision until the time of the end of his people, now in Revelation we see Jesus opening the seals and revealing what must shortly take place. Over and over again we see the time passages in Revelation.

Daniel 12

New International Version (NIV)

The End Times

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. ² Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. ³ Those who are wise^[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. ⁴ But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

⁵ Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. ⁶ One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”

⁷ The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.^[b]When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

⁸ I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”

⁹ He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. ¹⁰ Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

¹¹ “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. ¹² Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

¹³ “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Notice it is a time of tribulation for Daniels people, and the power of the holy people will be shattered for it to be complete. That happened in A.D. 70. OT Israel offered sacrifices and offerings, something that Jews today in our age cannot do because they have a better sacrifice that has fulfilled all that God requires if they would only trust in Him!

Acts 7:37-59

New International Version (NIV)

³⁷ “This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people.’^[a]38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.

³⁹ “But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. ⁴⁰ They told Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who led us out of Egypt—we don’t know what has happened to him!’^[b]41 That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and reveled in what their own hands had made. ⁴² But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets:

“‘Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings

forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel? [see Hebrews 3-4]

⁴³ You have taken up the tabernacle of Molek

and the star of your god Rephan,

the idols you made to worship.

Therefore I will send you into exile’^[c] beyond Babylon.

⁴⁴ “Our ancestors had the tabernacle of the covenant law with them in the wilderness. It had been made as God directed Moses, according to the pattern he had seen. ⁴⁵ After receiving the tabernacle, our ancestors under Joshua brought it with them when they took the land from the nations God drove out before them. It remained in the land until the time of David, ⁴⁶ who enjoyed God’s favor and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of Jacob.^[d]47 But it was Solomon who built a house for him.

⁴⁸ “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:

⁴⁹ “‘Heaven is my throne,

and the earth is my footstool.

What kind of house will you build for me?

says the Lord.

Or where will my resting place be?

⁵⁰ Has not my hand made all these things?’^[e]

⁵¹ “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! ⁵² Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— ⁵³ you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

The Stoning of Stephen

⁵⁴ When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. ⁵⁵ But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ⁵⁶ “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

⁵⁷ At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, ⁵⁸ dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

⁵⁹ While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Footnotes:

1. Acts 7:37 Deut. 18:15
   
2. Acts 7:40 Exodus 32:1
   
3. Acts 7:43 Amos 5:25-27 (see Septuagint)
   
4. Acts 7:46 Some early manuscripts the house of Jacob
   
5. Acts 7:50 Isaiah 66:1,2
   

Jesus is already at the right hand of the Father, and Stephen is the first NT saint in heaven to my knowledge.

There is a contrast in Revelation between the new people and the old, the righteous and the wicked, the harlot woman and the faithful woman, the new Jerusalem and the old, the Israel of old and the new Israel, the living and the dead, the forgiven and the guilty, the new promised land and the old, and many other things which I'm not even going to think about now. Many of the same contrasts can be found in Hebrews and every other epistle.

Blessings in Jesus the Lord!

Peter

[PGA]

Hi Enoch,

Since Israelite has addressed the thousand year time passages I'll just say this concerning your statement:

I see no time in history or at present that describes the lifestyle on Earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. With that fact alone I have to dismiss the preterist view as being not Biblical. -Enoch

You are looking at it from a literalist perspective instead of a spiritual/figurative one. Are you part of God's kingdom now? Is Jesus Christ not Lord and King? Has not Christ made peace for us with God?

Peter