ENOCH2010 Posted October 6, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Hi Enoch, Since Israelite has addressed the thousand year time passages I'll just say this concerning your statement: I see no time in history or at present that describes the lifestyle on Earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. With that fact alone I have to dismiss the preterist view as being not Biblical. -Enoch You are looking at it from a literalist perspective instead of a spiritual/figurative one. Are you part of God's kingdom now? Is Jesus Christ not Lord and King? Has not Christ made peace for us with God? Peter What do the preterits anticipate with a hopeful heart,with a desire to be found doing the Fathers will at His coming,if they don't think His return is literal? How terrible it must be believing that this life is all that there is to look forward to !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted October 6, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 6, 2012 Hi Enoch, Since Israelite has addressed the thousand year time passages I'll just say this concerning your statement: I see no time in history or at present that describes the lifestyle on Earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. With that fact alone I have to dismiss the preterist view as being not Biblical. -Enoch You are looking at it from a literalist perspective instead of a spiritual/figurative one. Are you part of God's kingdom now? Is Jesus Christ not Lord and King? Has not Christ made peace for us with God? Peter Israelite has provided unprovable inaccurate info ,, why is it that you refuse to addressthe very specific , very literal and very physical scripture references such as Isaiah 65 v.20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed." Zechariah 14 12This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. during the 1000 years Micah 4 Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Isaiah 11 8 6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. 7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. Revelation 20 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. when was a time that satan was bound for 1000 years ?? whenwas he not able to deceive people,,,? do you think that satan will be thrown into a lake of fire that was made specifically for him? exactly as scripture declares ? Please give exact dates as to when these things happened ,,,,,we know you cannot ,, but that is the point ,,, preterists falsely make claims that are not true ,, the 1000 year reign of Christ has not begun ,, none of these have happened and to think they are not real and literal is just Wrong Amen. I would like to see how these things have been explained away in the preterist view as well. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted October 8, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 8, 2012 Hi Enoch, Since Israelite has addressed the thousand year time passages I'll just say this concerning your statement: I see no time in history or at present that describes the lifestyle on Earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. With that fact alone I have to dismiss the preterist view as being not Biblical. -Enoch You are looking at it from a literalist perspective instead of a spiritual/figurative one. Are you part of God's kingdom now? Is Jesus Christ not Lord and King? Has not Christ made peace for us with God? Peter Israelite has provided unprovable inaccurate info ,, why is it that you refuse to addressthe very specific , very literal and very physical scripture references such as Isaiah 65 v.20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed." Zechariah 14 12This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. during the 1000 years Micah 4 Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Isaiah 11 8 6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. 7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. Revelation 20 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. when was a time that satan was bound for 1000 years ?? whenwas he not able to deceive people,,,? do you think that satan will be thrown into a lake of fire that was made specifically for him? exactly as scripture declares ? Please give exact dates as to when these things happened ,,,,,we know you cannot ,, but that is the point ,,, preterists falsely make claims that are not true ,, the 1000 year reign of Christ has not begun ,, none of these have happened and to think they are not real and literal is just Wrong Amen. I would like to see how these things have been explained away in the preterist view as well. Gary Hi Gary, Danielzk, I think Israelite has given reasonable proof, but you do not want to admit this. Let us reason it out. God called His people to reason. On the verses Israelite gave can you show how any of them mean exactly/literally what they say concerning the number 1,000, or is it more a figure of speech? More importantly, when we find any passages in the NT that make reference to the OT it is important to understand the passages as they are used in the OT,and in their complete context, and also in the light of how they understood them. How a passage was understood by those reading it has been pointed out before in reference to the Thessalonians who thought that the day of the Lord had already come. Obviously they did not see it in the same light (or darkness) that you see it (i.e., a physical coming). Paul never denied that the way they saw His coming was incorrect, just their time line. Obviously also is the fact that they did not see this day as an end of time event, since they believed it had already come and they were still there. 2 Thessalonians 2-3:1 New International Version (NIV) The Man of Lawlessness 2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. Stand Firm 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[b] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word. Request for Prayer 3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. Footnotes:2 Thessalonians 2:3 Some manuscripts sin2 Thessalonians 2:13 Some manuscripts because from the beginning God chose you2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions Paul is telling these 1st century believers that this day would not come until the man of lawlessness IS revealed and THEY know what IS holding him back, in fact the power of lawlessness IS already at work. The address is 'you, you, you.' And to make sure that we understand the context Paul asked his brothers and sisters to pray for 'us' (i.e., them - Paul included), another confirmation of a 1st century context. Why are you reading in a 21st century context? That is not what Scripture actually reveals. Do you think that God cannot say what He means and mean what He says? Anyone care to answer? I like what Israelite said. Let us agree to focus on one passage of Scripture at a time (and how it related to other relevant passages). Was A.D. 70 the Parousia? It depends on how you see His coming - physical or in presence. It depends how you see the time passages - whether you interpret them correctly or not. It depends in what should be taken as literal and what figurative, symbolic, type and shadow. When you talk of type and shadow there are comparisons in every book of the NT between what was and what is in Christ. It makes a great deal of difference as to whether you see Matthew 5:17-18 as still in effect or whether you see the victory in Christ in the New Covenant under a new heaven and a new earth (for His people). It depends how you see the New Covenant, period. 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 New International Version (NIV) 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! Footnotes:2 Corinthians 5:17 Or Christ, that person is a new creation. Are you brothers in Christ? Then the old has gone. What does that mean? What did it mean to those of the 1st century that Paul was addressing? Jesus died on the cross in order to put the New Covenant into effect and mediated it also. But it could not be completed until the Old Covenant was obsolete. When did that happen? Or possibly in your case, when will it happen? Hebrews 8:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. During the 1st century these Hebrew Christians were in danger of turning back to Judaism and the Old Covenant sacrifices. The author of Hebrews, inspired by the Holy Spirit reminds these Hebraic Christians of the superiority of the New Covenant by comparing the old types and shadows to Christ. The author reminds these Christians that their forefathers did not harken their hearts to His voice and that whole generation perished in the desert. At the time of writing this epistle during the current 40 years, 'this generation' that Jesus spoke of earlier, was almost up. The warning of not entering that rest was sent out to these people too if they did not harken to His voice the same fate would happen to them. Thankfully the Lord Jesus Christ is able to keep His people from falling! As for the New Covenant coming into effect, it could not happen without a mediator (The Lord), and His death was necessary in order to put His will into effect so that everything would be cleansed with His blood. His blood is needed to cover our sins. The old covenant was put into effect with the blood of bulls and goats, so too the new was put into effect with the blood of the Lord. And since it is put in effect the temple and sacrifices required by the old one are redundant for they cannot do what Jesus did. That is why the old had to be made obsolete and it was made obsolete in A.D. 70. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient. What use is the old? What is more, the Seed went into the ground and produced much fruit. A seed does not come to life unless it dies. Are you counted dead in Christ and alive to the Lord? If so then you are a new creation. The old has gone and the new has come, a spiritual rebirth. Are you not part of the new heavens and new earth? God, figuratively speaking, was married to Old Covenant Israel. Jeremiah 31:31-35 New International Version (NIV) 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to[a] them,[b]” declares the Lord. 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” 35 This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord Almighty is his name: Footnotes:Jeremiah 31:32 Hebrew; Septuagint and Syriac / and I turned away fromJeremiah 31:32 Or was their master OT Israel was likened to a marriage with God but she was a harlot, a prostitute, an unfaithful wife, thus God gave her a divorce. A marriage is also put into effect by covenant. When they killed His Son He divorced them. She had agreed to the betrothal, but she proved that she was not a virgin and had not honored her vow of betrothal. Can you see any similarities between the marriage covenant and the OT or NT covenants? Jesus proclaimed the wedding feast in which the Lamb was to marry a faithful bride, New Israel, the faithful OT remnant who were waiting for Him as well as the NT believers - the church bought with the blood of Christ. He was betrothed to them and the wedding was put into effect once OT Israel was obsolete. 2 Corinthians 1:20 New International Version (NIV)20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. God's covenants are linked and likened to the entrance into marriage. The bride of Christ was also betrothed. When God set up the covenant with OT Israel the twelve pillars of witness were the twelve tribes of Israel (Exodus 24:1-8; Jeremiah 3:20). The twelve represented the nation. When Christ set up the New Covenant in His blood His 12 disciples were His witnesses to this covenant. We see this representation in the New Jerusalem, the heavenly city, Mount Zion, which is made up of the faithful and true people of God - the faithful bride. There are many types and shadows and I believe many of the passages you refer to are exactly this for they contain spiritual truths that need discerning. I'll be honest in that I don't have the answers to all your questions, but for the ones I do I will work away at in my time. I'm hoping that this will be a two way street. I have also asked you many questions. Revelation 21:9-14 New International Version (NIV) The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb 9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Both OT and NT Israel ia represented here. Again OT Israel is a type and shadow of what was to come, a better Israel of God. Israel has been restored in Christ. Many OT saints were looking for a better city, a better country which they found in Christ. You have the earthly Promised Land which is a shadow of the heavenly Promised Land, just like you have the earthly Mount Sinai where the Old Covenant was put into effect, so also you have the heavenly Mount Zion where Jesus sits as Mediator of a New Covenant with His people. This list is long. Hebrews 11:14-16 New International Version (NIV) 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. Where is your citizenship? I'm out of time. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted October 8, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Hi Enoch, Since Israelite has addressed the thousand year time passages I'll just say this concerning your statement: I see no time in history or at present that describes the lifestyle on Earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. With that fact alone I have to dismiss the preterist view as being not Biblical. -Enoch You are looking at it from a literalist perspective instead of a spiritual/figurative one. Are you part of God's kingdom now? Is Jesus Christ not Lord and King? Has not Christ made peace for us with God? Peter Israelite has provided unprovable inaccurate info ,, why is it that you refuse to addressthe very specific , very literal and very physical scripture references such as Isaiah 65 v.20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed." Zechariah 14 12This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. during the 1000 years Micah 4 Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Isaiah 11 8 6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. 7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. Revelation 20 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. when was a time that satan was bound for 1000 years ?? whenwas he not able to deceive people,,,? do you think that satan will be thrown into a lake of fire that was made specifically for him? exactly as scripture declares ? Please give exact dates as to when these things happened ,,,,,we know you cannot ,, but that is the point ,,, preterists falsely make claims that are not true ,, the 1000 year reign of Christ has not begun ,, none of these have happened and to think they are not real and literal is just Wrong Amen. I would like to see how these things have been explained away in the preterist view as well. Gary Hi Gary, Danielzk, I think Israelite has given reasonable proof, but you do not want to admit this. Let us reason it out. God called His people to reason. On the verses Israelite gave can you show how any of them mean exactly/literally what they say concerning the number 1,000, or is it more a figure of speech? More importantly, when we find any passages in the NT that make reference to the OT it is important to understand the passages as they are used in the OT,and in their complete context, and also in the light of how they understood them. How a passage was understood by those reading it has been pointed out before in reference to the Thessalonians who thought that the day of the Lord had already come. Obviously they did not see it in the same light (or darkness) that you see it (i.e., a physical coming). Paul never denied that the way they saw His coming was incorrect, just their time line. Obviously also is the fact that they did not see this day as an end of time event, since they believed it had already come and they were still there. 2 Thessalonians 2-3:1 New International Version (NIV) The Man of Lawlessness 2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. Stand Firm 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[b] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word. Request for Prayer 3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. Footnotes:2 Thessalonians 2:3 Some manuscripts sin2 Thessalonians 2:13 Some manuscripts because from the beginning God chose you2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions Paul is telling these 1st century believers that this day would not come until the man of lawlessness IS revealed and THEY know what IS holding him back, in fact the power of lawlessness IS already at work. The address is 'you, you, you.' And to make sure that we understand the context Paul asked his brothers and sisters to pray for 'us' (i.e., them - Paul included), another confirmation of a 1st century context. Why are you reading in a 21st century context? That is not what Scripture actually reveals. Do you think that God cannot say what He means and mean what He says? Anyone care to answer? I like what Israelite said. Let us agree to focus on one passage of Scripture at a time (and how it related to other relevant passages). Was A.D. 70 the Parousia? It depends on how you see His coming - physical or in presence. It depends how you see the time passages - whether you interpret them correctly or not. It depends in what should be taken as literal and what figurative, symbolic, type and shadow. When you talk of type and shadow there are comparisons in every book of the NT between what was and what is in Christ. It makes a great deal of difference as to whether you see Matthew 5:17-18 as still in effect or whether you see the victory in Christ in the New Covenant under a new heaven and a new earth (for His people). It depends how you see the New Covenant, period. 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 New International Version (NIV) 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! Footnotes:2 Corinthians 5:17 Or Christ, that person is a new creation. Are you brothers in Christ? Then the old has gone. What does that mean? What did it mean to those of the 1st century that Paul was addressing? Jesus died on the cross in order to put the New Covenant into effect and mediated it also. But it could not be completed until the Old Covenant was obsolete. When did that happen? Or possibly in your case, when will it happen? Hebrews 8:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. During the 1st century these Hebrew Christians were in danger of turning back to Judaism and the Old Covenant sacrifices. The author of Hebrews, inspired by the Holy Spirit reminds these Hebraic Christians of the superiority of the New Covenant by comparing the old types and shadows to Christ. The author reminds these Christians that their forefathers did not harken their hearts to His voice and that whole generation perished in the desert. At the time of writing this epistle during the current 40 years, 'this generation' that Jesus spoke of earlier, was almost up. The warning of not entering that rest was sent out to these people too if they did not harken to His voice the same fate would happen to them. Thankfully the Lord Jesus Christ is able to keep His people from falling! As for the New Covenant coming into effect, it could not happen without a mediator (The Lord), and His death was necessary in order to put His will into effect so that everything would be cleansed with His blood. His blood is needed to cover our sins. The old covenant was put into effect with the blood of bulls and goats, so too the new was put into effect with the blood of the Lord. And since it is put in effect the temple and sacrifices required by the old one are redundant for they cannot do what Jesus did. That is why the old had to be made obsolete and it was made obsolete in A.D. 70. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient. What use is the old? What is more, the Seed went into the ground and produced much fruit. A seed does not come to life unless it dies. Are you counted dead in Christ and alive to the Lord? If so then you are a new creation. The old has gone and the new has come, a spiritual rebirth. Are you not part of the new heavens and new earth? God, figuratively speaking, was married to Old Covenant Israel. Jeremiah 31:31-35 New International Version (NIV) 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to[a] them,[b]” declares the Lord. 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” 35 This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord Almighty is his name: Footnotes:Jeremiah 31:32 Hebrew; Septuagint and Syriac / and I turned away fromJeremiah 31:32 Or was their master OT Israel was likened to a marriage with God but she was a harlot, a protitute, an unfaithful wife, thus God gave her a divorce. A marriage is also put into effect by covenant. When they killed His Son He divorced them. Jesus proclaimed the wedding of the Lamb who was to marry a faithful bride, New Israel, the faithful OT remnant who were waiting for Him as well as the NT believers - the church bought with the blood of Christ. He was betrothed to them and the wedding was put into effect once OT Israel was obsolete. 2 Corinthians 1:20 New International Version (NIV)20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. God's covenants are linked and likened to the entrance into marriage. The bride of Christ was also betrothed. When God set up the covenant with OT Israel the twelve pillars of witness were the twelve tribes of Israel (Exodus 24:1-8; Jeremiah 3:20). The twelve represented the nation. When Christ set up the New Covenant in His blood His 12 disciples were His witnesses to this covenant. We see this representation in the New Jerusalem, the heavenly city, Mount Zion, which is made up of the faithful and true people of God - the faithful bride. There are many types and shadows and I believe many of the passages you refer to are exactly this for they contain spiritual truths that need discerning. I'll be honest in that I don't have the answers to all your questions, but for the ones I do I will work away at in my time. I'm hoping that this will be a two way street. I have also asked you many questions. Revelation 21:9-14 New International Version (NIV) The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb 9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Both OT and NT Israel ia represented here. Again OT Israel is a type and shadow of what was to come, a better Israel of God. Israel has been restored in Christ. Many OT saints were looking for a better city, a better country which they found in Christ. You have the earthly Promised Land which is a shadow of the heavenly Promised Land, just like you have the earthly Mount Sinai where the Old Covenant was put into effect, so also you have the heavenly Mount Zion where Jesus sits as Mediator of a New Covenant with His people. This list is long. Hebrews 11:14-16 New International Version (NIV) 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. Where is your citezenship? I'm out of time. Peter Peter, would you like to admit that you didn't even address the scriptures Danielzk asked you too? Isaiah 11 & 65, Micah 4 and Zechariah 14. You went everywhere but there though you were asked to address these specific scriptures, you did not. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted October 8, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 8, 2012 Hi Enoch, Since Israelite has addressed the thousand year time passages I'll just say this concerning your statement: I see no time in history or at present that describes the lifestyle on Earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. With that fact alone I have to dismiss the preterist view as being not Biblical. -Enoch You are looking at it from a literalist perspective instead of a spiritual/figurative one. Are you part of God's kingdom now? Is Jesus Christ not Lord and King? Has not Christ made peace for us with God? Peter Israelite has provided unprovable inaccurate info ,, why is it that you refuse to addressthe very specific , very literal and very physical scripture references such as Isaiah 65 v.20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed." Zechariah 14 12This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. during the 1000 years Micah 4 Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Isaiah 11 8 6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. 7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. Revelation 20 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. when was a time that satan was bound for 1000 years ?? whenwas he not able to deceive people,,,? do you think that satan will be thrown into a lake of fire that was made specifically for him? exactly as scripture declares ? Please give exact dates as to when these things happened ,,,,,we know you cannot ,, but that is the point ,,, preterists falsely make claims that are not true ,, the 1000 year reign of Christ has not begun ,, none of these have happened and to think they are not real and literal is just Wrong Amen. I would like to see how these things have been explained away in the preterist view as well. Gary Hi Gary, Danielzk, I think Israelite has given reasonable proof, but you do not want to admit this. Let us reason it out. God called His people to reason. On the verses Israelite gave can you show how any of them mean exactly/literally what they say concerning the number 1,000, or is it more a figure of speech? More importantly, when we find any passages in the NT that make reference to the OT it is important to understand the passages as they are used in the OT,and in their complete context, and also in the light of how they understood them. How a passage was understood by those reading it has been pointed out before in reference to the Thessalonians who thought that the day of the Lord had already come. Obviously they did not see it in the same light (or darkness) that you see it (i.e., a physical coming). Paul never denied that the way they saw His coming was incorrect, just their time line. Obviously also is the fact that they did not see this day as an end of time event, since they believed it had already come and they were still there. 2 Thessalonians 2-3:1 New International Version (NIV) The Man of Lawlessness 2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. Stand Firm 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[b] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word. Request for Prayer 3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. Footnotes:2 Thessalonians 2:3 Some manuscripts sin2 Thessalonians 2:13 Some manuscripts because from the beginning God chose you2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions Paul is telling these 1st century believers that this day would not come until the man of lawlessness IS revealed and THEY know what IS holding him back, in fact the power of lawlessness IS already at work. The address is 'you, you, you.' And to make sure that we understand the context Paul asked his brothers and sisters to pray for 'us' (i.e., them - Paul included), another confirmation of a 1st century context. Why are you reading in a 21st century context? That is not what Scripture actually reveals. Do you think that God cannot say what He means and mean what He says? Anyone care to answer? I like what Israelite said. Let us agree to focus on one passage of Scripture at a time (and how it related to other relevant passages). Was A.D. 70 the Parousia? It depends on how you see His coming - physical or in presence. It depends how you see the time passages - whether you interpret them correctly or not. It depends in what should be taken as literal and what figurative, symbolic, type and shadow. When you talk of type and shadow there are comparisons in every book of the NT between what was and what is in Christ. It makes a great deal of difference as to whether you see Matthew 5:17-18 as still in effect or whether you see the victory in Christ in the New Covenant under a new heaven and a new earth (for His people). It depends how you see the New Covenant, period. 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 New International Version (NIV) 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! Footnotes:2 Corinthians 5:17 Or Christ, that person is a new creation. Are you brothers in Christ? Then the old has gone. What does that mean? What did it mean to those of the 1st century that Paul was addressing? Jesus died on the cross in order to put the New Covenant into effect and mediated it also. But it could not be completed until the Old Covenant was obsolete. When did that happen? Or possibly in your case, when will it happen? Hebrews 8:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. During the 1st century these Hebrew Christians were in danger of turning back to Judaism and the Old Covenant sacrifices. The author of Hebrews, inspired by the Holy Spirit reminds these Hebraic Christians of the superiority of the New Covenant by comparing the old types and shadows to Christ. The author reminds these Christians that their forefathers did not harken their hearts to His voice and that whole generation perished in the desert. At the time of writing this epistle during the current 40 years, 'this generation' that Jesus spoke of earlier, was almost up. The warning of not entering that rest was sent out to these people too if they did not harken to His voice the same fate would happen to them. Thankfully the Lord Jesus Christ is able to keep His people from falling! As for the New Covenant coming into effect, it could not happen without a mediator (The Lord), and His death was necessary in order to put His will into effect so that everything would be cleansed with His blood. His blood is needed to cover our sins. The old covenant was put into effect with the blood of bulls and goats, so too the new was put into effect with the blood of the Lord. And since it is put in effect the temple and sacrifices required by the old one are redundant for they cannot do what Jesus did. That is why the old had to be made obsolete and it was made obsolete in A.D. 70. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient. What use is the old? What is more, the Seed went into the ground and produced much fruit. A seed does not come to life unless it dies. Are you counted dead in Christ and alive to the Lord? If so then you are a new creation. The old has gone and the new has come, a spiritual rebirth. Are you not part of the new heavens and new earth? God, figuratively speaking, was married to Old Covenant Israel. Jeremiah 31:31-35 New International Version (NIV) 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to[a] them,[b]” declares the Lord. 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” 35 This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord Almighty is his name: Footnotes:Jeremiah 31:32 Hebrew; Septuagint and Syriac / and I turned away fromJeremiah 31:32 Or was their master OT Israel was likened to a marriage with God but she was a harlot, a protitute, an unfaithful wife, thus God gave her a divorce. A marriage is also put into effect by covenant. When they killed His Son He divorced them. Jesus proclaimed the wedding of the Lamb who was to marry a faithful bride, New Israel, the faithful OT remnant who were waiting for Him as well as the NT believers - the church bought with the blood of Christ. He was betrothed to them and the wedding was put into effect once OT Israel was obsolete. 2 Corinthians 1:20 New International Version (NIV)20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. God's covenants are linked and likened to the entrance into marriage. The bride of Christ was also betrothed. When God set up the covenant with OT Israel the twelve pillars of witness were the twelve tribes of Israel (Exodus 24:1-8; Jeremiah 3:20). The twelve represented the nation. When Christ set up the New Covenant in His blood His 12 disciples were His witnesses to this covenant. We see this representation in the New Jerusalem, the heavenly city, Mount Zion, which is made up of the faithful and true people of God - the faithful bride. There are many types and shadows and I believe many of the passages you refer to are exactly this for they contain spiritual truths that need discerning. I'll be honest in that I don't have the answers to all your questions, but for the ones I do I will work away at in my time. I'm hoping that this will be a two way street. I have also asked you many questions. Revelation 21:9-14 New International Version (NIV) The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb 9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Both OT and NT Israel ia represented here. Again OT Israel is a type and shadow of what was to come, a better Israel of God. Israel has been restored in Christ. Many OT saints were looking for a better city, a better country which they found in Christ. You have the earthly Promised Land which is a shadow of the heavenly Promised Land, just like you have the earthly Mount Sinai where the Old Covenant was put into effect, so also you have the heavenly Mount Zion where Jesus sits as Mediator of a New Covenant with His people. This list is long. Hebrews 11:14-16 New International Version (NIV) 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. Where is your citezenship? I'm out of time. Peter Peter, would you like to admit that you didn't even address the scriptures Danielzk asked you too? Isaiah 11 & 65, Micah 4 and Zechariah 14. You went everywhere but there though you were asked to address these specific scriptures, you did not. Gary I'm working on it Gary. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted October 8, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I'm working on it Gary. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted October 8, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,586 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,443 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Shalom, Isra'elite. Hi folks. Concerning the "thousand years" mentioned in Rev 20, lets look elsewhere in scripture for God's key as to how to understand what "thousand" means; (Deu 7:9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; Does this mean exactly 1000 generations and then no more mercy? Lol, no, of course not. It is an "indeterminate time". Forever in fact. All scholars agree. Frankly, NOT all scholars agree. One is ASSUMING that if the 1000 generations is literal, that the end of God's mercy would be at 1000 generations when the text is clear that it is a RANGE, not a limit. The wording is "TO a thousand generations!" Furthermore, we have YET to experience a "thousand generations"; so, HOW WOULD ONE KNOW ONE WAY OR THE OTHER? All we can do is accept the words of this statement, regardless what we might prefer to believe or to what we may "agree." Even if one were to limit a "generation" to 20 years, we are talking about 20 x 999 + 1 years = 19,981 years (using the "picket fence" rule), and many accept a "generation" to be at least 40 years or more! The Bible only gives us evidence of 7,000 to 10,000 years max! It COULD be an "indeterminate time," but it is not REQUIRED to be so. Now, what determines a "generation?" A "generation" is not a predetermined length of time or a unit of time, like "year" or "decade" or "score (of years);" it is a word determined by RELATIONSHIP between parents and children. If it is to be defined as the amount of time from the age at which one group of people are predominantly able to have children to the time at which their children are predominantly able to have children, then wouldn't that be a limited number IF at some point in the future no further natural children are born? You see, this is NOT a "cut and dry" argument, "LOL." (Jos 23:10) One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you. Does this mean that if there is more than a thousand that one man won't be able to chase them? No of course not. It is a "figure of speech". All scholars agree. You're forgetting similar verses, such as Leviticus 26:8 and Deuteronomy 32:30. The point of these verses is that GOD is the source of our strength! Consider: Leviticus 26:6-13 6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land. 7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. 8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword. 9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you. 10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new. 11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people. 13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright. KJV Deuteronomy 31:30-32:31 30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended. 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. 2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: 3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. 5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. 6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee? 7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee. 8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. 9 For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. 10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. 11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: 12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. 13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; 14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape. 15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. 16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. 21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. 24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. 25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs. 26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: 27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the Lord hath not done all this. 28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them. 29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end! 30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up? 31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. KJV The first of these two passages sets up an exponential relationship: 5 shall chase 100, and 100 shall put 10,000 to flight. Considering 5 x 20 = 100, and 5 x 20 x 100 = 10,000, then we have an exponential increase, based on how GOD feels about His people! The second is even better: 1 chases 1000 and 2 put 10,000 to flight. Considering 1:10^3 and 2:10^4, then we have a ratio of n:10^(2+n), again a phenomenal exponential increase! Obviously, this is not talking about how many each person can put to flight; it is talking about God's multiplied desire to fight for His people! It's not about the 1 or the 2 or the 5 or the 100 or the 1,000 or the 10,000! It's about the Rock who goes to war for His people the Isra'elis! (Psa 50:10) For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. Is God only the God of 1000 hills worth of cattle? What about all the other thousands of hills on the earth, who does the cattle on those hills belong to? Or are we going to insist there is only 1000 hills in existence? It is a figure of speech. All scholars know this. Actually, scholars who are in the know understand that the Hebrew word, "alef" (same as the first letter of the Hebrew alefbet), translated "a thousand," also means "bull" or "ox" and would have been better translated as "grazing" as in "upon grazing hills." Thus, the number is NOT THERE! The psalmist is talking about any and EVERY grazing hill! (Psa 84:10) For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness. Is a day in the courts of God good only UP TO a thousand days? Then it's no longer as good? It is an indeterminate number, a figure of speech. All scholars know this. Here again, you assume too much. The Hebrew phrase is "Kiy Towv yowm bachatseereykhaa mee'aalef," and it means, "Better one day in Your courts than a thousand [anywhere else]." (Psa 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Does this verse emphatically state that ONLY a thousand years are as yesterday to the Lord? Or could it be that ten thousand or even a million years are as but yesterday to God? Do we see a limitation that God can ONLY see ONE thousand years as yesterday? What would 500 years be, only 12 hours ago to God? lol, of course not. It is a figure of speech, an indeterminate amount of time. All scholars agree on this. Wrong again. You are forgetting that this verse is quoted by Kefa (Peter) in 2 Peter 3:8 and is connected to Isaiah 24:23 and to Revelation 21:23-25 and 22:5: 2 Peter 3:8 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. KJV Isaiah 24:23 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. KJV Revelation 21:23-26 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. KJV Revelation 22:5 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. KJV Although I believe that Revelation 21 and 22 happen LATER, AFTER the Millennium, they have this in common with the Millennium! God, through His Messiah, EMITS LIGHT!!! Some mistakenly believe this means that there will be no more sun or moon, but that's not what these verses imply. They are simply saying that they will NOT BE NEEDED! Indeed, Isaiah 24:23 uses a personification of the sun and the moon to say that the sun will be OUTDONE and the moon CONFUSED or MIXED UP in its phases! The REASON a thousand years will be like a day is because it will NEVER BE DARK WITHIN THE CITY during those one thousand years! We might also include Malachi 4:2: Malachi 4:1-3 4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. KJV (Ecc 6:6) Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? But what if a man lived a thousand years THREE times?? would he THEN see good and not go to that one place where all go? It is a figure of speech to illustrate a point as always. Again, you have a real aversion to the word "thousand!" IT'S JUST A NUMBER! IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN 2 or 5 or 7 or 13 or 20! It's just a point on the number line! A "thousand years twice told" is 2,000 years. So, Shlomo (Solomon) wasn't even talking about the Millennium! He was showing the pointlessness of living - however long - just to die in the end! (Isa 30:17) One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill. Does this mean only exactly one thousand too? hehe getting to be pretty obvious to some here isn't it I've already dealt with this sort of verses above. The "thousand year reign" of Rev 20 has great meaning. It agrees with every other scripture where the word FOREVER is used. It is of an impossibly indeterminate time period. NOT just 1000 years. Not at all. Revelation 20 DOES have great meaning, particularly in the first seven verses in which haSatan (Hebrew: "the Enemy") is locked up in the "bottomless pit," or the "pit with an unsounded bottom," a very deep hole in the ground which no one has explored to see how deep it is. SIX TIMES the words "chilia etee," translated into English as "a thousand years" and into Latin as "mille annium" or "millennium." Why shouldn't the "thousand years" be a literal "THOUSAND YEARS?" Just because you don't like it? Just because you don't think it's necessary? Just because it doesn't agree with YOUR interpretation of Scripture?! Revelation is FULL of numbers that are even LARGER than a mere "thousand" years! Revelation 5:11 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands KJV Revelation 7:4 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. KJV Revelation 7:5 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. KJV (etc.) Revelation 9:16 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. KJV Revelation 11:13 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. KJV Revelation 14:1 14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. KJV Revelation 14:20 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. KJV Why didn't Yochanan (John) use one of those numbers? If he MEANT to say "forever," then why didn't he SAY "FOREVER?!" He meant to say a "thousand" years because that's how long the incarceration of haSatan will last - a THOUSAND YEARS! Just because it doesn't fit into your little box of theology doesn't mean that it should be taken figuratively and squeezed in anyway! "The Kingdom of God is within you" said Jesus. A Kingdom that will never end. And it began when you received the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ into your flesh and you became the Temple of the Living God who dwells within you. Dispensationalism, the 150 year old doctrine from Scotland, has it's entire existence in "futurism". And it CENTERS around a mystical 1000-years-exactly doctrine. It is a doctrine that robs men of the fulfillment in them of O.T. scriptures. The doctrine places all things spoken of as NOT being fulfilled (just like why the jews were cut off) and puts them into the future and onto this planet. A doctrine that kills souls. As you can see, unless you understand the language of the Lord, you will never know how long the "thousand years" are unless we follow along as He teaches. Never jump to conclusions from the data received from the carnal mind. Only use the Word of God and then we can know His mind and what He "MEANS". We can now see from all the precedent set before us by God, the key to understanding scriptures. Scripture always interprets itself. This is called "exegesis" folks. Not theology. It is how God reveals. He directs us to the scriptures so that we can know these things. In this manner, everything will soon begin to fit together so perfectly that there will be no question, only answers With Love in Christ, An Israelite First, Yeshua` was talking TO THE PHARISEES when Luke translated what He said as, "Hee basileia tou Theou entos humoon estin." Luke 17:20-21 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. KJV The word "entos" can be either translated as "within" or it can be translated as "among," depending on the context. Given that Yeshua` was talking to a GROUP of Pharisees and used the pronoun "humoon," He was talking to them AS a group of people! So, when He said, "Hee basileia tou Theou entos humoon estin," in this context the words should have been rendered, "The Kingdom of God is among [all of] you," and Yeshua` was referring to HIS OWN PRESENCE among them! ... Unless, of course, you believe that these Pharisees did indeed have God's Kingdom within them! Secondly, yes, it will be an everlasting Kingdom, but it hasn't started yet, because the presence of the Kingdom is dependent upon the physical presence of the King, and HE'S NOT HERE, YET! We can consider ourselves subjects of His Kingdom that is to come AHEAD OF TIME, but that doesn't mean that He is currently reigning! The mere fact that He is seldom called a "king" in Scripture and is usually called the "Christ" or the "Messiah," God's "ANOINTED" TO BE KING, leads one to understand that His role as the future King of Y'hudah (King of Judah or King of the Jews), then King of Isra'el, and then King of Kings or World Emperor has yet to begin! Thirdly, not all futurism is dispensationalism, although all dispensationalism is futurism. Futurism did not begin in Scotland or with Darby. A futuristic view of the prophecies of Scripture was present in the first century, as can be noted in the writings of several of the apostles, disciples, and early church fathers. They EXPECTED Yeshua` to physically return and set up His Kingdom in Isra'el! Fourthly, one cannot "rob" someone else of something that he doesn't have or of something to which he is not entitled! If anything, it is YOU who robs people of the simple, normal meaning of the words of a passage of Scripture! YOURS is a doctrine that DELUDES people into thinking that the Jews no longer count in God's promises, that God no longer has to keep His promises to the Isra'elis! That somehow those promises were passed on to foreigners and people to whom the promises AS WRITTEN are MEANINGLESS! You twist the Scriptures until they cry out in pain, and then you use them to "support" your unfounded conclusions and have the gall to call it "exegesis?!" A viewpoint that forgets how God loved/loves the Isra'eli people and thinks that God has transferred that love to the "Church," manipulating believers into thinking that the "Church" is the center of God's economy is every bit as dangerous as those in the "Church" who used to believe that the earth was the center of the solar system and persecuted men like Copernicus and Galileo, making them "recant," rather than to "go against the Church with their damnable heresy!" Although He temporarily shelved the Jewish people, He has NEVER forgotten them! One should carefully read Romans 9-11 and Ephesians 2 and come to the realization that God is NOT finished with the Isra'elis! He has their best interest at heart, and He has and WILL CONTINUE to bring them back to their Land, He WILL return, and He WILL establish His Kingdom, centered at Yerushalayim, Isra'el. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted October 8, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 8, 2012 Shalom Roy, (Gary, Danielzk, Montana, you are included in this post), (Jos 23:10) One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you. Does this mean that if there is more than a thousand that one man won't be able to chase them? No of course not. It is a "figure of speech". All scholars agree. -Israelite You're forgetting similar verses, such as Leviticus 26:8 and Deuteronomy 32:30. The point of these verses is that GOD is the source of our strength! Consider... -Roy You are still missing the point, regardless of whether the verse teaches God is our source of strength, IMO. Is God using a figure of speech when He uses a thousand in the verse, or is it a literal 1,000? (Ecc 6:6) Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? But what if a man lived a thousand years THREE times?? would he THEN see good and not go to that one place where all go? It is a figure of speech to illustrate a point as always. -Israelite Again, you have a real aversion to the word "thousand!" IT'S JUST A NUMBER! IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN 2 or 5 or 7 or 13 or 20! It's just a point on the number line! A "thousand years twice told" is 2,000 years. So, Shlomo (Solomon) wasn't even talking about the Millennium! He was showing the pointlessness of living - however long - just to die in the end! -Roy Again, the point is to show that you can't take everything as literal when the number 1,000 is used in Scripture, and as you say, Solomon was talking of the pointlessness of living, outside of God. Granted that God's thoughts are above and beyond us, but God uses man's language in order to reason and communicate with man, otherwise we would have no understanding of God. The point is that a thousand does not necessarily mean exactly one thousand. Not at all. Revelation 20 DOES have great meaning, particularly in the first seven verses in which haSatan (Hebrew: "the Enemy") is locked up in the "bottomless pit," or the "pit with an unsounded bottom," a very deep hole in the ground which no one has explored to see how deep it is. SIX TIMES the words "chilia etee," translated into English as "a thousand years" and into Latin as "mille annium" or "millennium." Why shouldn't the "thousand years" be a literal "THOUSAND YEARS?" Just because you don't like it? Just because you don't think it's necessary? Just because it doesn't agree with YOUR interpretation of Scripture?! Revelation is FULL of numbers that are even LARGER than a mere "thousand" years! -Roy http://www.eschatolo...s-that-possible Wrong again. You are forgetting that this verse is quoted by Kefa (Peter) in 2 Peter 3:8 and is connected to Isaiah 24:23 and to Revelation 21:23-25 and 22:5 -Roy It is a direct quote from Psalm 90, even though it is connected to many other passages. Now, what determines a "generation?" A "generation" is not a predetermined length of time or a unit of time, like "year" or "decade" or "score (of years);" it is a word determined by RELATIONSHIP between parents and children. If it is to be defined as the amount of time from the age at which one group of people are predominantly able to have children to the time at which their children are predominantly able to have children, then wouldn't that be a limited number IF at some point in the future no further natural children are born? You see, this is NOT a "cut and dry" argument, "LOL." -Roy I believe the Lord gives us a clear understanding of what He means by a generation in Hebrews: Hebrews 3:7-4:11 New International Version (NIV) Warning Against Unbelief 7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the wilderness, 9 where your ancestors tested and tried me, though for forty years they saw what I did. 10 That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.’ 11 So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[a] 12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”[b] 16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God 4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[c]3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, “So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[d] And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[e]5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.” 6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”[f] 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[g] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience. Footnotes:Hebrews 3:11 Psalm 95:7-11Hebrews 3:15 Psalm 95:7,8Hebrews 4:2 Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faithHebrews 4:3 Psalm 95:11; also in verse 5Hebrews 4:4 Gen. 2:2Hebrews 4:7 Psalm 95:7,8Hebrews 4:10 Or labor Since Jesus died in A.D. 30-33 the time line fits well to coincide with the destruction of the city and temple and with the author's admonition to enter that rest while it is still today. God was angry with that generation that perished in the desert, just like He is angry with this generation for rejecting His beloved Son. There is a contrast between the old and the new throughout the book. The author is reminding this people who lived in the 1st century of what happened to that other generation, since I think it can be deduced that these 1st century people being addressed had made a profession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah. Remember that the book starts by stating that: Hebrews 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV) God’s Final Word: His Son 1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. You can't keep ignoring the time passages or who is being primarily addressed as they relate to the context of the Scriptures without mangling His word. Here is the author, addressing Hebraic Christians concerning the last days and a better covenant that the one that still existed until A.D. 70. The author wants to make sure that they do not rely on their own works but on those of Christ. Moses, the Levitical priesthood, their offerings and sacrifices, Mount Sinai and the Old Covenant is being compared to Jesus and the new better covenant. Just as those failed to enter the Promised Land and rest from their labors, so these were in danger of doing so too. The word "entos" can be either translated as "within" or it can be translated as "among," depending on the context. Given that Yeshua` was talking to a GROUP of Pharisees and used the pronoun "humoon," He was talking to them AS a group of people! So, when He said, "Hee basileia tou Theou entos humoon estin," in this context the words should have been rendered, "The Kingdom of God is among [all of] you," and Yeshua` was referring to HIS OWN PRESENCE among them! ... Unless, of course, you believe that these Pharisees did indeed have God's Kingdom within them! Secondly, yes, it will be an everlasting Kingdom, but it hasn't started yet, because the presence of the Kingdom is dependent upon the physical presence of the King, and HE'S NOT HERE, YET! We can consider ourselves subjects of His Kingdom that is to come AHEAD OF TIME, but that doesn't mean that He is currently reigning! The mere fact that He is seldom called a "king" in Scripture and is usually called the "Christ" or the "Messiah," God's "ANOINTED" TO BE KING, leads one to understand that His role as the future King of Y'hudah (King of Judah or King of the Jews), then King of Isra'el, and then King of Kings or World Emperor has yet to begin! -Roy I think you miss the boat on this one Roy. How can we be subjects of a kingdom that does not exist and a Christ who does not reign? Does Christ reign in your heart, your life? If He does not then how can He be Lord? http://www.eschatolo...eternal-kingdom Thirdly, not all futurism is dispensationalism, although all dispensationalism is futurism. Futurism did not begin in Scotland or with Darby. A futuristic view of the prophecies of Scripture was present in the first century, as can be noted in the writings of several of the apostles, disciples, and early church fathers. They EXPECTED Yeshua` to physically return and set up His Kingdom in Isra'el! -Roy I don't see this futurist view in the writings of the apostles although I know it was present with some of the early church fathers, but what do the Scriptures say. Regarding Darby and Scofield, I believe that they were the ones who made the view popular and that by taking Daniel 9:24-27 out of context along with many other Scriptures. Fourthly, one cannot "rob" someone else of something that he doesn't have or of something to which he is not entitled! If anything, it is YOU who robs people of the simple, normal meaning of the words of a passage of Scripture! YOURS is a doctrine that DELUDES people into thinking that the Jews no longer count in God's promises, that God no longer has to keep His promises to the Isra'elis! That somehow those promises were passed on to foreigners and people to whom the promises AS WRITTEN are MEANINGLESS! You twist the Scriptures until they cry out in pain, and then you use them to "support" your unfounded conclusions and have the gall to call it "exegesis?!" A viewpoint that forgets how God loved/loves the Isra'eli people and thinks that God has transferred that love to the "Church," manipulating believers into thinking that the "Church" is the center of God's economy is every bit as dangerous as those in the "Church" who used to believe that the earth was the center of the solar system and persecuted men like Copernicus and Galileo, making them "recant," rather than to "go against the Church with their damnable heresy!" Although He temporarily shelved the Jewish people, He has NEVER forgotten them! One should carefully read Romans 9-11 and Ephesians 2 and come to the realization that God is NOT finished with the Isra'elis! He has their best interest at heart, and He has and WILL CONTINUE to bring them back to their Land, He WILL return, and He WILL establish His Kingdom, centered at Yerushalayim, Isra'el. -Roy What promises has God not kept from Israel? The fulfillment of the land has happened. New Israel reigns with God, both Jew and Gentile, the faithful remnant of OT plus the faithful believers in the NT. (Gary, Danielzk, this is for you too): http://www.eschatolo...ction-of-beauty http://www.eschatolo...illed-or-future Danielzk, Gary, this last link is especially for you. Please reference the Scriptural passages. http://www.eschatolo...-sorrow-no-pain Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted October 9, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Danielzk, Gary, this last link is especially for you. Please reference the Scriptural passages. http://www.eschatolo...-sorrow-no-pain Peter Thank you Peter, but I am not here to chase links and read articles about what others say. I come here and wanted to have a discussion with you about certain verses that you might personally address through the wisdom given you by God. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted October 9, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2012 Danielzk, Gary, this last link is especially for you. Please reference the Scriptural passages. http://www.eschatolo...-sorrow-no-pain Peter Thank you Peter, but I am not here to chase links and read articles about what others say. I come here and wanted to have a discussion with you about certain verses that you might personally address through the wisdom given you by God. Gary Hi Gary, I had a hunch that you had not read the links I had presented in the passed. These links just save me a lot of work and time. I work 12 hour shifts so spare time is a precious commodity. I don't have time to go down every rabbit hole every day. How about answering some of the questions I ask you then from now on if you want me to invest the time with you. Are you in agreement friend? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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