A Moral Debate: Why Capitalism is Best for America

[Matthitjah]

Andy,

I was merely reiterating once again that the needs of the genuinely needy are at the mercy of the dark heart of man in capitalism.

Here's the problem with that statement though. A Socialst system like the one in Canada, for instance, only shifts the burden of the dark heart of man from the individual to some unnamed Bureaucrat. I heard just this morning on a news program from a Doctor in the Canadian Socialized Health Care System that it has begun to shift back to the Free Market Model and that public opinion was behind this move because they found the system less than equitable. Know why? Some nameless faceless bureaucrat some where was causing rationing on basic medical care.

What happens in a system where the Government controls the dark heart of the man is called tyranny because it becomes the dark heart of man exemplified and compounded rather than individualized.

peace,

dave

[MorningGlory]

4.A capitalist system promotes excess wealth creation and tempts man to greed.A mans greed is not static and can be influenced by excess.

Wanting to be wealthy is not greed. The Bible does not condemn anyone for being wealthy. The Bible condemns those who put their wealth ahead of God.

And what exactly constitutes "excess?" How much money is too much money?? Who has the right to determine for everyone else what "excess" is?

No one but God Himself.

[Matthitjah]

4.A capitalist system promotes excess wealth creation and tempts man to greed.A mans greed is not static and can be influenced by excess.

Wanting to be wealthy is not greed. The Bible does not condemn anyone for being wealthy. The Bible condemns those who put their wealth ahead of God.

And what exactly constitutes "excess?" How much money is too much money?? Who has the right to determine for everyone else what "excess" is?

Excess wealth

Luk 12:16-23 LITV

(16) And He spoke a parable to them, saying, A certain rich man produced well from the land.

(17) And he reasoned within himself, saying, What may I do, for I have nowhere I may gather my fruits?

(18) And he said, I will do this; I will tear down my barns and I will build larger; and I will gather there all my produce and my goods.

(19) And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take rest, eat, drink, and be glad.

(20) But God said to him, Fool! This night they demand your soul from you; and that which you prepared, to whom will it be?

(21) So is he treasuring up for himself, and not being rich toward God.

(22) And He said to His disciples, Because of this I say to you, Do not be anxious as to your life, what you should eat; nor as to the body, what you should put on.

(23) The life is more than the food and the body than the clothing.

Could we compare this to collecting money?

Christ wasn't condemning him for having riches. Rather Christ was pointing up that he put the riches and his security in them before God. He made worldly plans for his security rather than Trusting in God.

The Scripture relevant to this is;

Mt

[Matthitjah]

4.A capitalist system promotes excess wealth creation and tempts man to greed.A mans greed is not static and can be influenced by excess.

For lack of a better way to explain my thoughts -

How is your reasoning different from Islamic nations that force women to wear burkas to prevent tempting men from lust?

I have no problem with women covering their bodies as Muslims do and most Muslim women do it willingly I hear.

There are many people who would accept standard income too so that the needy could benefit.Not capitalists of course.

The only people who would accept a standard income are those without motivation or drive; leveling the playing field so that all have the same kills innovation and creativity, not to mention the dream of rising above mediocrity. Why work and excel when you already know what your lot in life will be?

Charity expects no return.If we labour for the common good of our society we should not feel deprived.After all putting our neighbour ahead of ourselves is good right?

This "dream of rising above mediocrity" seems very egotistical and selfish.

Our lot in life is not to pursue wealth.

Yet you appear to be in favor of forced Charity? Is that Righteous? Will it see the common good advanced? Is it something that God advocates?

How can someone be charitable if their wealth is confiscated or they haven't the means to even produce wealth?

[nebula]

Charity expects no return.If we labour for the common good of our society we should not feel deprived.After all putting our neighbour ahead of ourselves is good right?

This "dream of rising above mediocrity" seems very egotistical and selfish.

Our lot in life is not to pursue wealth.

How does everyone being equally poor help build a society?

[enoob57]

Now you understand the whole capitalism thing I want - I work - I need... now where do I put God in all this?

Where is God in any other form of economic system? This really is a bizarre argument you are forming.

No argument Neb! Were just not connecting in our thoughts and direction. I am not a very good communicator!

I was thinking about this debate -

And I'm wondering what the things you are saying have to do with the nations' economic system?

This is sounding like you are arguing how to personally live.

They have underneath influence, subtlety, cunning to separate us from the ultimate subjection created unto UnCreated.

You are correct for I can think of nothing else most of the time! For all that I am and what I think and what I say now will be given in account to Him face to face! I can think of nothing more important than this truth. As I read His account for Himself unto me I am shamed most of the time for my self centered, selfish, ungratefulness and I truly do love Him! For what I have been given already in my being drives me to want to give Him more! When I think of the systems of the world they all turn from Him and the obediences He wishes for us to apply one to another. It is the morality issue where we can have only His rule in our lives that separate us form being at home here in this world. We obey all that is set over us as obedience unto Him but we are constantly examining His Word to whether we can follow or not the leaders that are place over us. It is worrisome and growing worse as day to day we see! But so His Word has prepared us for this! Love Steven

[~candice~]

I still stand by what I said... the needs of the needy are dependent on the hearts of man to give. Some people will give, some won't. But it is the dependency I am arguing, not who gives or what I would do if I were rich.

Hmmm . . . OK.

So, does any other form of economic system do anything about the dependency problem?

Yes, but they impinge on individual liberty to do so.

If you don't trust the heart of man to give, you set up a system to take. This is what socialism and communism does, it impinges on the liberties of man in order to have the system make those decisions for man. There is a shift of control and money from the individual to the system.

Obviously even in our own nations, they impinge on our liberties a little in order to do this. They take more taxes then they need [to supply our own needs] in order to supply the needs of others.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but it is how it works.

I don't think anyone here is really advocating a purely capitalist model; each of us accept a greater or lesser extent of a violation of our liberties in return for those needs being met by the state.

Andy,

I was merely reiterating once again that the needs of the genuinely needy are at the mercy of the dark heart of man in capitalism.

Here's the problem with that statement though. A Socialst system like the one in Canada, for instance, only shifts the burden of the dark heart of man from the individual to some unnamed Bureaucrat. I heard just this morning on a news program from a Doctor in the Canadian Socialized Health Care System that it has begun to shift back to the Free Market Model and that public opinion was behind this move because they found the system less than equitable. Know why? Some nameless faceless bureaucrat some where was causing rationing on basic medical care.

What happens in a system where the Government controls the dark heart of the man is called tyranny because it becomes the dark heart of man exemplified and compounded rather than individualized.

peace,

dave

Dave, it's true! In a socialist or communism economy, the nation is at the whims of the dark heart of the dictator . It's a problem in ALL economic models, since all economic models involve man, and we know our own heart.

But like I said to Neb, no one is really advocating a pure capitalist model. Why do you think that is? Even you yourself [i'll find the quote if need be] reminded me that no one was trying to completely remove welfare.

We are happy to give and have the liberty to choose when/where/what/why, but within reason. Why is it, do you think, that no one is really fighting for pure unadulterated capitalism? Could it be that they also don't want the burden placed solely on man to recognise the need and meet it?

So getting back on topic (whooops!)...

Given that we can't change this heart of man, I think the economic system built on a basis of capitalism, with some individual liberties [taxation] traded for socialised programs like health and welfare, is the best we can do.

You know how I feel about socialised medicine, and I don't think either of our positions have changed since last time we discussed it, so I'll pass on commenting on that part of your post.

[nebula]

So, does any other form of economic system do anything about the dependency problem?

Yes, but they impinge on individual liberty to do so.

If you don't trust the heart of man to give, you set up a system to take. This is what socialism and communism does, it impinges on the liberties of man in order to have the system make those decisions for man. There is a shift of control and money from the individual to the system.

Obviously even in our own nations, they impinge on our liberties a little in order to do this. They take more taxes then they need [to supply our own needs] in order to supply the needs of others.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but it is how it works.

I don't think anyone here is really advocating a purely capitalist model; each of us accept a greater or lesser extent of a violation of our liberties in return for those needs being met by the state.

But look at what socialism and communism do besides take away everyone's income and redistribute it.

Has there ever been a Socialist or Communistic nation that has allowed freedom of religion? Freedom of speech?

And has there been a Socialist or Communistic nation where the leaders did not become the greedy wealthy?

[~candice~]

So, does any other form of economic system do anything about the dependency problem?

Yes, but they impinge on individual liberty to do so.

If you don't trust the heart of man to give, you set up a system to take. This is what socialism and communism does, it impinges on the liberties of man in order to have the system make those decisions for man. There is a shift of control and money from the individual to the system.

Obviously even in our own nations, they impinge on our liberties a little in order to do this. They take more taxes then they need [to supply our own needs] in order to supply the needs of others.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but it is how it works.

I don't think anyone here is really advocating a purely capitalist model; each of us accept a greater or lesser extent of a violation of our liberties in return for those needs being met by the state.

But look at what socialism and communism do besides take away everyone's income and redistribute it.

Has there ever been a Socialist or Communistic nation that has allowed freedom of religion? Freedom of speech?

And has there been a Socialist or Communistic nation where the leaders did not become the greedy wealthy?

Neb, your replies to my posts is making me think that you misunderstood my point, or that I am not explaining myself clear enough. I haven't even touched on these topics.

I didn't defend socialism or communism so I don't understand where this is coming from, or where you are going with it.

So far all I have done is point out the dependency created under a capitalist model and suggested that, because of that dependency, the 'best' economy is going to be one where there is still some invasion of liberty in return for a meeting of some needs through the government.

I'm not suggesting this invasion of liberty goes as far as to become socialism or communism.

Can you point me to one person in here, or even in America, who is honestly making a case for a purely capitalist market in the states?

[~candice~]

As I was reading through 1 Kings this morning, I found this...

1 Kings 11

Solomon's Wives

1 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter