Why America MUST fall

[BlindSeeker]

Shiloh - I think BlindSeeker is wanting to know how rebelling against the governing body does not violate the Scripture about submitting to the governing authority over you.

Because the Bible only calls on us to obey just laws that are commisserate with being a good citizen. It does not call on us to live under tyrrany and be subject to unrighteous rulers. There is no prohibition in Scripture for the kind of war engaged by the colonists. The 27 grievances of the colonists presented in the Declaration of Independence provide sufficient cause for the need of independence and the refusal of England to even give audience to those grievances over several years of patient entreaties by the colonists and the exhaustion of every peaceble avenue which the colonists employed, is sufficient cause for the kind of war they engaged in agaisnt Britain.

The Bible commands us to pay our taxes (what the Bible calls "tribute) and to render proper respect and to obey the laws that are justly given. I don't think we have a point of refrenence for the type of tyranny that the colonists were living under.

For anyone to argue that the United States was born out of an unjust war borders on being a traitor.

Jer 26:4 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you,

5 To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, but ye have not hearkened;

6 Then will I make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.

7 So the priests and the prophets and all the people heard Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of the LORD.

8 Now it came to pass, when Jeremiah had made an end of speaking all that the LORD had commanded him to speak unto all the people, that the priests and the prophets and all the people took him, saying, Thou shalt surely die.

9 Why hast thou prophesied in the name of the LORD, saying, This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate without an inhabitant? And all the people were gathered against Jeremiah in the house of the LORD.

10 When the princes of Judah heard these things, then they came up from the king's house unto the house of the LORD, and sat down in the entry of the new gate of the LORD'S house.

11 Then spake the priests and the prophets unto the princes and to all the people, saying, This man is worthy to die; for he hath prophesied against this city, as ye have heard with your ears.

[Guest shiloh357]

Lu 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear;

not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward

.

19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.

Shiloh - I think BlindSeeker is wanting to know how rebelling against the governing body does not violate the Scripture about submitting to the governing authority over you.

Because the Bible only calls on us to obey just laws that are commisserate with being a good citizen. It does not call on us to live under tyrrany and be subject to unrighteous rulers. There is no prohibition in Scripture for the kind of war engaged by the colonists. The 27 grievances of the colonists presented in the Declaration of Independence provide sufficient cause for the need of independence and the refusal of England to even give audience to those grievances over several years of patient entreaties by the colonists and the exhaustion of every peaceble avenue which the colonists employed, is sufficient cause for the kind of war they engaged in agaisnt Britain.

The Bible commands us to pay our taxes (what the Bible calls "tribute) and to render proper respect and to obey the laws that are justly given. I don't think we have a point of refrenence for the type of tyranny that the colonists were living under.

For anyone to argue that the United States was born out of an unjust war borders on being a traitor.

Jer 26:4 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you,

5 To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending them, but ye have not hearkened;

6 Then will I make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.

7 So the priests and the prophets and all the people heard Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of the LORD.

8 Now it came to pass, when Jeremiah had made an end of speaking all that the LORD had commanded him to speak unto all the people, that the priests and the prophets and all the people took him, saying, Thou shalt surely die.

9 Why hast thou prophesied in the name of the LORD, saying, This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate without an inhabitant? And all the people were gathered against Jeremiah in the house of the LORD.

10 When the princes of Judah heard these things, then they came up from the king's house unto the house of the LORD, and sat down in the entry of the new gate of the LORD'S house.

11 Then spake the priests and the prophets unto the princes and to all the people, saying, This man is worthy to die; for he hath prophesied against this city, as ye have heard with your ears.

I fail to see how either of these responses address the issue. First of all, Peter addresses how servants should relate to their masters and masters to their servants. It does not address the fact that the 13 colonies were suffering under extreme unrighteous tyrranny. Peter's admonition has nothing to with how nations relate to each other.

Secondly Jeremiah is not addressing anything remotely similar. God's judgment was coming down on Israel because Israel and Judah had fallen into idolatry and had forsaken God's Torah.

Neither passage deals with the context of need of the American colonists to be free from the tryannical, unrighteous rule of England.

You need to learn how to pay better attention to context and apply competent hermeneutics.

[Matthitjah]

Brother Seeker,

I would like to hear your opinion in regards to the woman riding the beast. I know that you regard her as the false religion of anti christ. You even link her to Nimrod and I feel that is correct too.

Here's the thing though, she was riding the beast even back then and that beast was typified by the rule of Nimrod and his Kingdom that he was trying to build up and that God took down because of, IMO, the times and the seasons.

This false Religion of anti-christ has ridden the back of many a Nation state, many a Kingdom. However, each one of those Nation states has had the iron grip of rule over the whole of the known world at the time and especially in regards to Israel as you have already stated. They have encompassed and trampled under the Middle East and in specific Israel.

Please address how this false religion is currently stride upon America as the Beast in specific.

Also please address the clay that holds this last world dominating power together.

The beast that was, is, and will be is very clearly Rome. Rome was the last dominant world power. However, it is very clearly also every dominate WWorld power prior to Rome. It just keeps changing forms and no wonder. They also trampled Israel under foot. I agree that we and the Briitish Empire as well as the Ottoman's prior were an ensample of this power. We even came from this Power. However, I postulate that we are the "IS". Yet I clearly do not agree that this Beast has yet risen from the pit to become the "will be". We are just retainging it's position. When Rome fell it disintigrated into many little pieces and it as yet to return to it's former state. However, it is clear from Daniel and his vision that it will be revived and that it will be held together loosely not as with it's former Iron but in a loose confederation of some common interest.

Can you specifically address thes issues?

Peace,

dave

[Bold Believer]

Shiloh - I think BlindSeeker is wanting to know how rebelling against the governing body does not violate the Scripture about submitting to the governing authority over you.

Because the Bible only calls on us to obey just laws that are commisserate with being a good citizen. It does not call on us to live under tyrrany and be subject to unrighteous rulers. There is no prohibition in Scripture for the kind of war engaged by the colonists. The 27 grievances of the colonists presented in the Declaration of Independence provide sufficient cause for the need of independence and the refusal of England to even give audience to those grievances over several years of patient entreaties by the colonists and the exhaustion of every peaceble avenue which the colonists employed, is sufficient cause for the kind of war they engaged in agaisnt Britain.

The Bible commands us to pay our taxes (what the Bible calls "tribute) and to render proper respect and to obey the laws that are justly given. I don't think we have a point of refrenence for the type of tyranny that the colonists were living under.

For anyone to argue that the United States was born out of an unjust war borders on being a traitor.

I have addressed the issue of tribute vs taxes in another post. Only conquered nations (as Israel was) pay tribute. The Scripture doesn't equate taxes with tribute contextually.

The decision of our forefathers to secede from England was not entered into lightly and not without prayer. The office of King (or President) is not the person of the King/President. The office is from God. The person holding the office is responsible for upholding the integrity of the office; when said person fails to do so, they open themselves to the righteous anger of their constituents. This is what happened at the time of the Revolution, and frankly, what is happening in America today. Officeholders are failing to uphold the integrity of their office and the people are angry. Many times the officeholders are actively working TO destroy the Christian underpinnings of America. Other times, it's just their inability to control their fleshly desires.

[MorningGlory]

I'm not sure what makes you think the attack at Pearl Harbor was 'provoked'. How was that accomplished? What did the U.S. do? A provocation by definition is an action of some kind.

What really bothers me about your post is that it just seems to be more of the 'blame America' drivel that I've been hearing for a long time now. Did we provoke 9/11 too? Is Bin Laden correct in saying the U.S. is guilty of the largest terrorist attacks of all time?

I am sorry you are so bothered. Maybe you should search out the answers for yourself.

I've studied Pearl Harbor's history, maybe you should too.

Here's some sites just to start . . .

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

That's just a quick search on google. They are not the resources I searched it out on, back then Al Gore didn't invent the internet yet when I first study the subject, but the Freedom of Information Act has made more info available. You should be able to research it all in a fraction of the time I initially invested. i

Here are some responses to our dropping the Bomb . . . you might recognizing some of their names . . .

"...the greatest thing in history."

-

Harry S. Truman

- President of the United States during the Atomic Bombing

Of course . . . he ordered it dropped . . .

Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men . . .

Re 13:4 . . . Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

More . . .

"It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse."

-

General Henry H. "Hap" Arnold

Commanding General of the U.S. Army

Air Forces Under President Truman

"I had been conscious of depression and so I voiced to (Sec. Of War Stimson) my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at this very moment, seeking a way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.' "

-

General Dwight D. Eisenhower

"Japan was at the moment seeking some way to surrender with minimum loss of 'face'

[BlindSeeker]

Well, it DOES bother me and I don't buy one word of that stuff. I still can't figure out how you shift the onus onto the United States for being the bad guy. If you don't want an atomic bomb dropped on your cities....don't attack people! I checked out some of those links.....Roosevelt was just DYING to enter the war so he let the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor? What a load of rubbish! You said 'sorry it bothers you' twice. Sarcasm? No matter; this is your opinion and you're entitled to it but just you believing it doesn't make it true.

Nope, no sarcasm. I am truly sorry it bothers you. But I have prayed and study and sought God on this for almost 25 years . . . not being happy about it myself.

[MorningGlory]

Well, it DOES bother me and I don't buy one word of that stuff. I still can't figure out how you shift the onus onto the United States for being the bad guy. If you don't want an atomic bomb dropped on your cities....don't attack people! I checked out some of those links.....Roosevelt was just DYING to enter the war so he let the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor? What a load of rubbish! You said 'sorry it bothers you' twice. Sarcasm? No matter; this is your opinion and you're entitled to it but just you believing it doesn't make it true.

Nope, no sarcasm. I am truly sorry it bothers you. But I have prayed and study and sought God on this for almost 25 years . . . not being happy about it myself.

Well, if you're not being sarcastic then I'm sorry I inferred that. It really DOES bother me. I wasn't there (and I;m sure you weren't either, B.S.) and I just can't think of any logical reason for Roosevelt to allow all those Americans to be killed and then, if he wanted to enter the war, why would he allow our Navy to be decimated? It doesn't follow a logical path. What sources did you actually research to come this conclusion?

[hayahtowb]

Now for the God the Native American worshiped or worship still (I don't know), I brought this question up because I noticed that even in this forum some have pet names for our Father in Heaven/God, so I wondered could it be possible that Native Americans could of been worshiping our Father in Heaven and could of they been calling him by another name, I'm sure the word GOD wasn't in their vocabulary. Regardless our forefathers still had to teach Native Americans God's word and of their salvation through Jesus Christ. I'm not really up on the Native American beliefs, maybe there is a Christian Native American in Worthy that can educate us.

oldzimm, I make no apologies for; and prefer to keep my anonymity. However I would like to offer a book that might be useful to you?

It's called: North American Sun Kings

by J.B.Mahan

[hayahtowb]

To B.B.

Thanks for the thread, your in my prayers.

[BlindSeeker]

Well, it DOES bother me and I don't buy one word of that stuff. I still can't figure out how you shift the onus onto the United States for being the bad guy. If you don't want an atomic bomb dropped on your cities....don't attack people! I checked out some of those links.....Roosevelt was just DYING to enter the war so he let the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor? What a load of rubbish! You said 'sorry it bothers you' twice. Sarcasm? No matter; this is your opinion and you're entitled to it but just you believing it doesn't make it true.

Nope, no sarcasm. I am truly sorry it bothers you. But I have prayed and study and sought God on this for almost 25 years . . . not being happy about it myself.

Well, if you're not being sarcastic then I'm sorry I inferred that. It really DOES bother me. I wasn't there (and I;m sure you weren't either, B.S.) and I just can't think of any logical reason for Roosevelt to allow all those Americans to be killed and then, if he wanted to enter the war, why would he allow our Navy to be decimated? It doesn't follow a logical path. What sources did you actually research to come this conclusion?

Like I said, Roosevelt was elected both terms because he promised he wouldn't send Americans to war on foreign soil.