Baptismal regeneration vs baptismal confession

[UncleAbee]

I never said James was any different. I am pointing out James 2:24 - "24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." This clearly states that we have to do some kind of work to be made right before God.

[UncleAbee]

AS being a mountain man: UA writ rite har; not over that...........;-D

Who cares about the Thief on the Cross? Jesus DID! What were you commanded to do in Acts 2:38 after Peter opened the doors to the church? Jesus is the rock and chief cornerstone and foundation; not Peter. We have to understand that Jesus was speaking to the thief alone. And to me alone and each as if I'm saved and my wife is saved; just because we may have a child, he/she isn't born Christian. Peter was speaking to all of us who want to be in the church. Abraham was under a different law. One way; anyone trying to come in any other way is the same as a their and robber. The law came by Moses and Abraham was 430 yrs before Moses and the law. He did what he was commanded at that time. Jesus was in the place called Abraham's bossum; while susposedly in the tomb and when after three days He arose and Abraham and ~500 came with Him and were seen in the streets of Jerusalem. One way: Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the way; no man cometh to the father but by me........ Abraham was a man. We have to do the same thing. Gal 3:27 clearly states that we are baptized "into" Christ. Baptism of the Christ via spirit. Mark 16:16 ties baptism and salvation together. This is plain teaching.

Baptism by immersion into the local body of believers. The salvaion and Christ's sanctificaton gives us justificaiton. So, if I have salvation by Jesus and get struck by a metor I'm saved still with that water baptism or joining the churh.

Yes; UA you have to do the same thing. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God: marvel not, you must be born again and you can be baptised by fire and the spirit and then follow baptism and communion and foot washing. And they were in the upper room and rushing might wind and cloven tongues of fire and speaking in tongues............. The shortest 16 year course in textual critisum on record; all the languages and scriptures learned and committed to memory.

A person can go into the baptismal pool of water a sinner and come out just as lost as he/she was before. Jesus saves; not water baptism.

All of this writing does not change:

Mark 16:16 - He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Gal 3:27 - For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Acts 2:37-38 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I never said water baptism saves. If that were the case all that go swimming would be saved. Rather Jesus saves through baptism. That is a different statement. In the same way God saved Noah through the ark (Heb 11:7). The ark in and of itself saved no one.

Sam wrote - "Baptism by immersion into the local body of believers. The salvaion and Christ's sanctificaton gives us justificaiton. So, if I have salvation by Jesus and get struck by a metor I'm saved still with that water baptism or joining the churh."

I think you were saying that baptism is specifically for joining a local congregation. If so then please produce scriptures that back this up. If not please explain what you are talking about.

Edited July 19, 2010 by UncleAbee

[Fraught]

Come on everybody - Just DO It !!!

[MorningGlory]

Come on everybody - Just DO It !!!

Um...do what???

[stevehut]

Some groups (notably Roman Catholicism and some parts of the Church of Christ) believe that baptism is essential to salvation: i.e. no baptism, no salvation.

Not necessarily. Many people believe (me, for one) that baptism is the normal channel of grace, but we also believe that God isn't constrained by it. He can do as he wants.

But that doesn't mean that we can just do "whatever," and assume that God will honor it.

[turtletwo]

I am not against water baptism. Though I know some believe it is a dispensational thing which is no longer necessary for Christians to partake of. But I strongly believe that the danger lies in looking to the immersing in water as part of our salvation. Or as a necessary act to perform at that moment of our faith in Christ. This type of thinking risks "works gospel confusion" and taking away from the completeness of Christ's Atonement... Is not His Blood alone enough to save our souls? Of course, it is!

Trusting in what He did gives Him all the glory and therefore prevents water baptism from becoming 'adding works to Grace.' Ephes 2:8-10 is the key verse. Our response to Christ's free gift of salvation should be one of being ashamed that we are sinners, trust in His finished work on the cross for us, recieving the free gift of salvation and heartfelt repentance (turning from our selfishness and sins to serve Jesus for the rest of our life... with Him on the throne of our heart as Lord.)

[turtletwo]

When I had my water baptism, I was quite young. And it was because I saw it in the Bible and wanted to obey anything God may want me to do. But I keep it in its rightful perspective. Jesus, not water baptism... saved my soul. My pastor from years ago (now Home with Jesus) never put a huge emphasis on water baptism. Nor did he say it was a way to become a member of our local church.

I have heard water baptism explained as an "outward show of an inward change" that already has occured through conversion. I have also heard some people say that it is a "symbolic identification with what Christ did for us." As we are immersed under the water, we are identifying with His death and burial for us And rising out of the water symbolizes His Resurrection.

We are also showing WE have died to our old pre-salvation ways and are coming up out of the water to signify our new life in Christ, (which of course occured at the point of being born again...when our salvation actually took place.)

There can be a gap in when you are saved and when you are water baptized, for various reasons. In my own case, I was young and wanted to understand a bit more about it before I just went ahead and did it. That way it would be more meaningful.

Sometimes people truly can't be immersed in water, before they die. For example, my dad is way too far into his cancer for that. If he would yield his heart to Christ and become saved, he is unable to have a water baptism due to his extreme weakness. But that would not prevent him from Heaven.

[UncleAbee]

When I had my water baptism, I was quite young. And it was because I saw it in the Bible and wanted to obey anything God may want me to do. But I keep it in its rightful perspective. Jesus, not water baptism... saved my soul. My pastor from years ago (now Home with Jesus) never put a huge emphasis on water baptism. Nor did he say it was a way to become a member of our local church.

I have heard water baptism explained as an "outward show of an inward change" that already has occured through conversion. I have also heard some people say that it is a "symbolic identification with what Christ did for us." As we are immersed under the water, we are identifying with His death and burial for us And rising out of the water symbolizes His Resurrection.

We are also showing WE have died to our old pre-salvation ways and are coming up out of the water to signify our new life in Christ, (which of course occured at the point of being born again...when our salvation actually took place.)

There can be a gap in when you are saved and when you are water baptized, for various reasons. In my own case, I was young and wanted to understand a bit more about it before I just went ahead and did it. That way it would be more meaningful.

Sometimes people truly can't be immersed in water, before they die. For example, my dad is way too far into his cancer for that. If he would yield his heart to Christ and become saved, he is unable to have a water baptism due to his extreme weakness. But that would not prevent him from Heaven.

.......and it still does not change

Mark 16:16 - He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Gal 3:27 - For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Acts 2:37-38 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I saw you wrote several times "I have heard." The question rather is what does the bible say? How can obeying a command of Christ take away from God's grace? Let's say you have been in the desert for 10 days with no food or water. You're about to die. Amazingly you come across a plate of food and water. You eat and drink and it allows you to live. Someone asks you about it and you say "I ate the food that was freely given but eating it had nothing to do with me being saved."

Eph 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; " - This statement in no way unties you from what God has commanded you to do. All it is saying is that you weren't the one that thought of salvation or made it possible for men to be saved. You still have to obey God to be saved. The bible does not contradict itself. Ask yourself how does Mark 16:16 (salvation through belief and baptism) tie with Eph 2:8 (salvation through faith and grace).

[Guest]

Uncompromising Love

Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them:

for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. Deuteronomy 31:6

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....A person can go into the baptismal pool of water a sinner and come out just as lost as he/she was before. Jesus saves; not water baptism....

All of this writing does not change:

Mark 16:16 - He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned....

Amen!

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:11

You Must Be Born Again

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:3-7

Believe

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

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.....Gal 3:27 - For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.....

Amen!

Jesus Covers

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:17-22

Jesus Is The Believer's Righteousness

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:2-4

You Are Right, It's Not Water

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4

Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

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....Acts 2:37-38 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit......

Amen!

Some Preach Water Is The Way

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Perhaps To Put Themselves In The Place Of Jesus

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. John 1:33

But It Is Written You Must Be Born Again

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. 1 Peter 1:22-25

You Are Right, Only Jesus Saves

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Luke 3:16

Men Will Either Believe Or Not

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

Believe

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. John 9:35-38

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....I never said water baptism saves. If that were the case all that go swimming would be saved. Rather Jesus saves through baptism. That is a different statement. In the same way God saved Noah through the ark (Heb 11:7). The ark in and of itself saved no one....

Hallelujah!

And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in. Genesis 7:16

You Are Correct, It Is By Faith

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:7

In His Holy Blood

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

Jesus Saves

Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness. 2 Chronicles 6:41

Believe

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:5-7

Or Not

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. Isaiah 59:21

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest]

....I saw you wrote several times "I have heard." The question rather is what does the bible say? How can obeying a command of Christ take away from God's grace? Let's say you have been in the desert for 10 days with no food or water. You're about to die. Amazingly you come across a plate of food and water. You eat and drink and it allows you to live. Someone asks you about it and you say "I ate the food that was freely given but eating it had nothing to do with me being saved."

Eph 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; " - This statement in no way unties you from what God has commanded you to do. All it is saying is that you weren't the one that thought of salvation or made it possible for men to be saved. You still have to obey God to be saved. The bible does not contradict itself. Ask yourself how does Mark 16:16 (salvation through belief and baptism) tie with Eph 2:8 (salvation through faith and grace)....

Well

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:2-4

Jesus Saves

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

Jesus Saves

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24

Jesus Saves

Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 16:9

Jesus Saves

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

Jesus Saves

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Acts 8:35-37

Jesus Saves

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:11

Jesus Saves

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31

Want Gifts

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Acts 19:4-6

Yes?

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14:22

Believe

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

Jesus Saves

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:2-6

Obey His Commandment

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:34-35

Yes Obey

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 15:3-4

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Love, Your Brother Joe