Daniel 9:24-27 Part II

[Dad Ernie]

Continuation from Pt. I

Okay, onward with the next point. "with many for one week". I believe we can agree that this is the LAST week of Daniel's 70 weeks. It IS the 70th week, a period of 7 years. As I know you are aware, this 7 years is very significant in the scriptures as pertains to Israel, for it is during this LAST 7 years that the COVENANT, in fact the NEW COVENANT shall be established with Israel. It is a time during which the Messiah will come to them and attempt to establish a "right relationship between them and God", thus "restoring them to a state of 'righteousness' " which will be the answer to Daniel's prayer in chapter 9.

During the first half of this 70th week, Jesus ministered almost solely to Israel:

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again, a review of Jesus ministry reveals that He ministered to them for 3 1/2 years, whereupon He was "cut off", and He sent His disciples "into all the world". During His ministry of 3 1/2 years He in fact did reach "many" and at Pentecost SEALED the New Covenant upon their hearts by the sending of the Holy Spirit to indwell them. BUT there are yet 3 1/2 years then remaining UNTIL Israel is "restored to a state of righteousness with God". THIS HAS NOT BEEN FULFILLED YET! We find a very unusual interjection at this point of time, because God's plan all along was not to exclude the gentiles, for He is THEIR GOD AS WELL:

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

So now, as pertains to Israel, we must get into Romans 9-11. For brevity's sake, I shall only highlight the pertinent verses and will start out with a short description of these chapters:

Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 9:23-24 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Paul is hereby grieving over his "brothers of the flesh", but he DOES understand the reason for what has happened. It was necessary that they rejected Christ and it was necessary that God rejected them.

Romans 10:1-2 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Herein Paul is continuing to pray for Israel, AND gives the instructions on HOW they might be saved, which is the same for both Jew and Gentile.

Romans 11:1-2 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Romans 11:11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Finally, Paul clarifies, without a shadow of a doubt that INDEED ALL Israel shall be saved. This will of course completely FULFILL the COVENANT mentioned in Daniel, HOWEVER, it will be according to the NEW COVENANT which He will establish with them when He takes their sins away. It is the same COVENANT that has been established among the Gentiles. For the first shall be last and the last shall be first. The Jews who received the covenant will be saved last, whereas the gentiles who received the covenant last, are welcomed into it first.

But we STILL have those last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week to contend with. So let me first cite the following prophecy given to Moses:

Deut 4:26-31 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27 And the LORD shall SCATTER YOU AMONG THE NATIONS, and ye shall be LEFT FEW IN NUMBER AMONG THE HEATHEN, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But IF FROM THENCE thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 WHEN THOU ARE IN TRIBULATION, AND ALL THESE THINGS ARE COME UPON THEE, EVEN IN THE LATTER DAYS, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

We see here that Israel will be terribly persecuted. Great days of TRIBULATION, EVEN IN THE LATTER DAYS.

Does that ring a bell? Can the New Testament give any further revelation in this regards? Well, several times in the book of Revelation we find a period of 3 1/2 years being described. If carefully observed and understood, you can see that these periods of 3 1/2 years run "concurrently" and NOT consequtively. I will leave that particular interpretation perhaps for another day. But the point I want to make here is that IT IS A TIME OF GREAT TRIBULATION, AND IS THE LATTER DAYS, immediately preceeding the Lord's 2nd Advent. By the time this GREAT TRIBULATION is over with, all the gentiles who are going to be saved, which are in the multitudes beyond count, AND "all" Israel will be saved and both together are prepared as a beautiful bride for the soon coming Messiah Jesus. If you doubt this, then please read Eph 1-3 which describes in great detail the union of Jew and Gentile to become a "habitation" on this earth "wherein God shall dwell through His Holy Spirit. (Eph 2:22)

At this time, at the arrival of the Lord Jesus for the resurrection/rapture the "covenant" of Daniel 9 will have been completely fulfilled and the NEW COVENANT firmly established.

Next is "in the midst of the week". I believe I have firmly established that this week being spoke of here is the 70th week of Daniel's 70 weeks. What happened in the midst (middle) of that week? Again for the uninitiated or uninformed, it was the CROSS! The Daniel COVENANT was CONFIRMED, a NEW COVENANT was thus established, so let's take a look at this for a moment:

Romans 9:31-32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Remember the words of Jesus who preached that the "Kingdom of God has come unto you":

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The word "nation" in Mt. 21 is the Greek word "ethnos" which is used repeatedly to refer to the gentiles, and the word "world" in Mk 16 is the Greek word "kosmos", meaning the WHOLE world.

So here "in the midst of the week", an interjection occurs in the 70th week for the Gospel to go to the gentile nations.

Next is: "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease":

It was NOT the "prince which was to come" that caused these things to cease, now why would Satan do that? They were an abomination to God:

Mark 12:32-33 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Hebrews 10:5-9 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

It was God Himself who caused these events to come about and the sacrifices and burnt offerings were NO longer acceptable unto Him. This was finalized in 70 A.D.

Next is: "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate".

Matthew 21:12-13 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but YE HAVE MADE IT A DEN OF THIEVES.

Matthew 15:7-9 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Again I would ask, why would Satan, the prince which was to come, stop a practice he instituted among the Jews?

Next is: "even until the consummation". The "consummation" of what? Remember Gabriel is telling Daniel of the Covenant God has determined for Israel. By extension, then we can recognize, as I have shown above, that when Israel repents and is restored to a state of righteousness with God, THEN will the Daniel 9 Covenant be finished. Individually, we can see that Jews today, who accept Christ, ARE "restored to righteousness" and they no longer are under the OLD COVENANT, but the NEW COVENANT.

In this regards, as well, we must see that the DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE shall remain absolutely destroyed UNTIL the "consummation".

And finally: "and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate". What has been set by God in His DETERMINATIONS for Israel, SHALL come to pass and will continue until the very end.

We see ONLY a remnant of the TRUE believers today, but it is written in several places that God will keep a "remnant of His people".

Some say that the Nation of Israel today is the "fulfillment of OT prophecies", but this is NOT so, for in the day that Israel REPENTS, and ACCEPTS CHRIST, they will "be restored to a state of righteousness with God", AND they shall be "restored to their land".

But some may quote Mt. 24 and refer to the current nation of Israel as it was established in 1948.

First of all, there may be a "remnant" of believers currently in Israel, but THIS does not mean ALL. There also is about 5.4 million Jews living there and approximately 8 million Jews who are still in the Diaspora - the scattering among the nations. So again this is NOT "ALL".

Secondly, they were to have peace and their weapons turned to plowshares. Any student of history or current events KNOWS this is not going to happen UNTIL the Lord Himself descends (with all His saints), and destroys the enemies of the land.

If you will CORRECTLY observe, in Mt. 24:

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Indeed, the 1948 return of part of Israel to the land is prophesied here, BUT THEY DO NOT PRODUCE ANY FRUIT. The governments and authorities NOW in the land are UNGODLY and ANTICHRIST in their mission and goals. For a Jew to recognize and accept Jesus as the Messiah, they are disowned and ostricized. There are very stringent laws and customs regarding prostelyzing Jews with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The vast majority (98-99%) of them are aetheistic, animists, new age, and Orthodox Jews, plus a few more I do not recall. Not counting the Muslims and whatever other ungodly religions there may be. THIS IS NOT THE ISRAEL PROPHESIED IN THE OT. This nation was brought together by the "hands of men", WHEN TRUE ISRAEL, WHICH WILL BE AMONG ALL THE SAINTS, FINALLY INHERIT THE LAND, IT WILL BE BECAUSE THE LORD JESUS HIMSELF SHALL DELIVER THEM THERE.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[wordsower]

OK, dad, that is a lot of info. Let me pray about it and study it some more before I respond.

Correct me if I'm wrong: Your main point is that Jesus confirms the covenant with ISrael for one week and that the current "state" of Israel is not the Israel He spoke of being restored.

Did I miss anything you are trying to tell us?

Thanks for the invite. I'll get back to you.

Sabra

[Guest yod]

that was an interesting read, Ernie. Thanks for going to all the trouble to write it out. I agree with much of it.

Indeed, the 1948 return of part of Israel to the land is prophesied here, BUT THEY DO NOT PRODUCE ANY FRUIT.

Still I don't think you can say with absolute certainty that Israel has produced no fruit. The entire reason the first modern messianic jewish congregation was started was through a visit to Israel. That tiny nation produces food for all of Europe and other places. They have provided a place for all the jews to come home to from the diaspora.

I see the dry bones growing flesh and sinews.... and then rising to form a great army in Ezekial. Then, and only then, does God breath His Spirit into them. I think we can see a great army there now, right? I think you have well pointed out that they are in the flesh, right?

The governments and authorities NOW in the land are UNGODLY and ANTICHRIST in their mission and goals.

They are making a place...clearing the land. They only seem to get in trouble when they try to give land away. Gaining land seems to be no problem. How is that possible if God is sovereign and He doesn't want them there?

For a Jew to recognize and accept Jesus as the Messiah, they are disowned and ostricized.

are you talking about by other jews or by christians?

THIS IS NOT THE ISRAEL PROPHESIED IN THE OT.

close...and thanks for playing the game....there is a nice consolation prize waiting in the lobby.

The correct answer was:

THIS IS NOT THE final state of ISRAEL as clearly PROPHESIED IN THE OT

This nation was brought together by the "hands of men", WHEN TRUE ISRAEL, WHICH WILL BE AMONG ALL THE SAINTS, FINALLY INHERIT THE LAND, IT WILL BE BECAUSE THE LORD JESUS HIMSELF SHALL DELIVER THEM THERE.

Yes...to a point.

Why couldn't He bring the REST of them back from the nations when He gets there???

[wordsower]

I agree with Yod on the Israel part. God said that He would always keep a small remnant. I believe we can see from fulfilled prophesies within the land of Israel that this is the true Israel being restored, blossoming as a rose. We still wait for the individuals in Israel to become what is promised.

Another note. I have studied this a lot because of a year long debate with an Adventist about Israel and in the passage, "All Israel will be saved." I'm not sure whether that is physical salvation from their enemies or salvation of souls. The greek word there for salvation is listed as rescue, delivered, saved as in salvation of souls is way down on the list. I'm not saying that ALL Israel wont be saved, but it seems to indicate being saved from annilation. If they were all saved in Jesus I don't see how we can have death in the millienium and children being born etc....seems there is still a government to be established with their Messiah as King before ALL Israel is saved in the soul sense of the word.

Just an observation. Didn't mean to jump back in before considering all, I still want to look into the Messiah confirming a covenant. First thing that comes to mind is "Why would He break a covenant that He makes?" I'm not sure that is possible with God.

Blessings, Dad, and Yod.

[Guest yod]

I'm not saying that ALL Israel wont be saved, but it seems to indicate being saved from annilation.

I think this is talking about a single day where jews all over the world will recognize that Yeshua is the promised Messiah.

Zech 12:5 "Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, 'A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.'

I also think that it will happen on THE Day of Atonement...which is what this greatest of Feasts is pointing to.

A couple of verses later Zechariah says, "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

and all Israel will be saved.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Wordsower and Yod,

To Wordsower:

Correct me if I'm wrong: Your main point is that Jesus confirms the covenant with ISrael for one week and that the current "state" of Israel is not the Israel He spoke of being restored.

Yes, Jesus "confirmed the covenant" in Daniel by His appearing. The current state of Israel has not repented, although as with the rest of the Jews, there remains a "remnant" of TRUE believers both in Israel and in the world. When God restores Israel, it will be to a state of righteousness with Him and they will beat their swords into plowshares. IOW, there will be peace, but as you will have noted, the land will remain "desolate" UNTIL the consummation. They will NOT produce ANY fruit (in keeping with repentance), until they are gathered into the New Covenant.

I agree with Yod on the Israel part. God said that He would always keep a small remnant. I believe we can see from fulfilled prophesies within the land of Israel that this is the true Israel being restored, blossoming as a rose. We still wait for the individuals in Israel to become what is promised.

Both Yod and Shiloah have spoken of the "fruit of the land that is now being produced". This is NOT the fruit that the the owner of the vineyard came looking for. Without the assistance of the U.S. and other nations, the current nation of Israel would NOT exist. It was NOT God who has returned the current Jews to the Land, but it is radical Zionists that believe they are doing the work of God in ushering in the last days. According to Zechariah, Israel is going to be destroyed once again and the people again scattered from that nation. When Jesus comes "with all His saints", THAT is when the fulfillment of the OT prophecies take place.

Another note. I have studied this a lot because of a year long debate with an Adventist about Israel and in the passage, "All Israel will be saved." I'm not sure whether that is physical salvation from their enemies or salvation of souls. The greek word there for salvation is listed as rescue, delivered, saved as in salvation of souls is way down on the list. I'm not saying that ALL Israel wont be saved, but it seems to indicate being saved from annilation. If they were all saved in Jesus I don't see how we can have death in the millienium and children being born etc....seems there is still a government to be established with their Messiah as King before ALL Israel is saved in the soul sense of the word.

I don't remember if it was this forum or another, but I was upbraided for my belief that ALL Israel did in fact mean ALL. I was informed and I confirmed what the other member said, that the Greek word ALL is NOT what I had thought. Here is the definition:

3956 pas {pas}

including all the forms of declension; TDNT - 5:886,795; adj

AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31,

everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,

no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6,

whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2,

any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243

1) individually

1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,

everything

2) collectively

2a) some of all types

++++

... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption

SOME OF ALL TYPES. This now becomes important in the understanding of what is meant by ALL Israel. I have thought about this as I've studied the 144,000 in Revelation. 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes would meet the definition of ALL Israel, according to the Greek definition. Now, I am not saying this is it, the 144,000 could be Jews ALREADY in heaven. The Lord just hasn't made that clear to me yet.

I still want to look into the Messiah confirming a covenant. First thing that comes to mind is "Why would He break a covenant that He makes?" I'm not sure that is possible with God.

The Messiah/God DOES NOT break the covenants, man may, in-as-much as he is able. It was Messiah that CONFIRMED AND FULFILLED/IS FULFILLING the Daniel Covenant. He does NOT break it.

To Yod,

that was an interesting read, Ernie. Thanks for going to all the trouble to write it out. I agree with much of it.

If nothing else, I hope that it revealed where I am coming from. What I wrote has come from several years of painstaking study and research and most of all I believe that I was guided by the Holy Spirit in understanding it.

QUOTE

Indeed, the 1948 return of part of Israel to the land is prophesied here, BUT THEY DO NOT PRODUCE ANY FRUIT.

Still I don't think you can say with absolute certainty that Israel has produced no fruit. The entire reason the first modern messianic jewish congregation was started was through a visit to Israel. That tiny nation produces food for all of Europe and other places. They have provided a place for all the jews to come home to from the diaspora.

The "fruit" I am speaking of is in reference to God's vineyard. It has to do with repentance and a humble heart and honoring God as should be. Fruit means being connected to the vine which is Jesus Christ. He said "Ye cannot produce fruit unless you remain in Him." I believe even you admit that the VAST majority of Israel IS NOT connected to the vine. According to George, there are 2% or less that believe in Jesus as Messiah.

I see the dry bones growing flesh and sinews.... and then rising to form a great army in Ezekial. Then, and only then, does God breath His Spirit into them. I think we can see a great army there now, right? I think you have well pointed out that they are in the flesh, right?

Shiloah brought the dry bones up and so I went and read the verses regarding them. I pointed out to him that the bones arose, had flesh put on them and the spirit of God in them BEFORE they were returned to the land. Shiloah's response was "well you just can't take a few scriptures out of context and prove anything" or words to that effect. I have yet to respond to him on that. But the point is that IN CONTEXT those DRY BONES are NOT in the LAND at the time they arose, and THEN brought into the land ONLY after flesh and the spirit of God was upon them. This is confirmed by the Deut 4:26-31 verses I have provided. Shiloah was way off the mark.

QUOTE

The governments and authorities NOW in the land are UNGODLY and ANTICHRIST in their mission and goals.

They are making a place...clearing the land. They only seem to get in trouble when they try to give land away. Gaining land seems to be no problem. How is that possible if God is sovereign and He doesn't want them there?

Those currently in the land are because of the prophecy of Mt. 24, NOT because of the prophecies of the OT.

Again, I will quote the following verse:

Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Israel is a thorn in ALL the nations sides. Either they are hated or loved and those who love them are burdened with trying to keep them at peace. But this will not last for:

Zechariah 14:2-5 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

QUOTE

For a Jew to recognize and accept Jesus as the Messiah, they are disowned and ostricized.

are you talking about by other jews or by christians?

By OTHER Jews.

QUOTE

THIS IS NOT THE ISRAEL PROPHESIED IN THE OT.

close...and thanks for playing the game....there is a nice consolation prize waiting in the lobby.

The correct answer was:

THIS IS NOT THE final state of ISRAEL as clearly PROPHESIED IN THE OT

I probably wouldn't have any problem with YOUR answer.

QUOTE

This nation was brought together by the "hands of men", WHEN TRUE ISRAEL, WHICH WILL BE AMONG ALL THE SAINTS, FINALLY INHERIT THE LAND, IT WILL BE BECAUSE THE LORD JESUS HIMSELF SHALL DELIVER THEM THERE.

Yes...to a point.

Why couldn't He bring the REST of them back from the nations when He gets there???

Once the resurrection/rapture occurs, it will consist of both Jew and Gentile. These will be "changed to be like Jesus". This reign of Jesus with all His saints is going to be a supernatural one. All those remaining "in the world" remain in their condition until they die or the end of the 1,000 years when they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Thank you both for reading my l-o-n-g posts. Now it looks like I'll have to respond to Trinity regarding the AoD. Stand by for that one.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

And I appreciate you being able to give a clear & concise biblical reason for what you believe. Now we can at least have a standard for our discussion...

I think I've discovered the root of your confusion, DE

Ez 37:11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

you are saying that this "whole house of Israel" is brought back AFTER Messiah comes, right?

I AGREE!!!!

But whenever you see the "house" of Israel mentioned it is referring to the 10 tribes who disappeared when they were carried off in the Assyrian invasion. This does not necessarily preclude the house of Judah already being in the land, though.

4 verses later, Ezekial says this

15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, 'Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, 'Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.' 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

18 "When your countrymen ask you, 'Won't you tell us what you mean by this?' 19 say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph-which is in Ephraim's hand-and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.'

to me, this would indicate that Judah's "stick" is already established.

whatchathinkabouthat?

[wordsower]

Ez 37:11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

you are saying that this "whole house of Israel" is brought back AFTER Messiah comes, right?

I AGREE!!!!

You do?

I understood that the bones represented the Jewish people coming back to the nation after the holocaust.

You do believe that the land over there is the land of Israel that was promised. Granted, not all of it, but at least some, don't you? I've had people try to convince me that it is all Palestine.

I agree they can't produce fruit, as in souls, until they are saved. That just makes sense, but the desert is actually growing trees in farms from the water recently found under the ground. The salt sea is being healed, the southern part is separating from the north, prophesied in Ezekiel and I think we can see physically the land being restored to it's natural state.

Surely there is a possible way to find out who "he" refers to in Dan. 9:27. and if Jesus confirmed a covenant with many for one week, what time period does that represent? You are saying this was at the first coming, right? Boy, Ernie, I think I'm confused.

Still studying...

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

But whenever you see the "house" of Israel mentioned it is referring to the 10 tribes who disappeared when they were carried off in the Assyrian invasion. This does not necessarily preclude the house of Judah already being in the land, though.

4 verses later, Ezekial says this

15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, 'Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, 'Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.' 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

18 "When your countrymen ask you, 'Won't you tell us what you mean by this?' 19 say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph-which is in Ephraim's hand-and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.'

to me, this would indicate that Judah's "stick" is already established.

whatchathinkabouthat?

I might ask you, are the Jews EVERYWHERE treated as ONE, even now? The NT is replete with mention of the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel being ONE at the time of its writing. Look up the addresses to the 12 tribes of Israel. Also, as I have mentioned before, a fairly recent study of the make-up of Israel reveal that ALL 12 tribes are accounted for, that is except for the House of David. There appears to be no one there of his lineage. But we know there is YET one ALIVE that has inherited his throne.

Does that answer your question?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest zionprophet]

that was an interesting read, Ernie. Thanks for going to all the trouble to write it out. I agree with much of it.

Indeed, the 1948 return of part of Israel to the land is prophesied here, BUT THEY DO NOT PRODUCE ANY FRUIT.

Still I don't think you can say with absolute certainty that Israel has produced no fruit. The entire reason the first modern messianic jewish congregation was started was through a visit to Israel. That tiny nation produces food for all of Europe and other places. They have provided a place for all the jews to come home to from the diaspora.

This concept of Israel producing no fruit seems to be a sticking point with Ernie.

I've noticed in some of his other posts that the mere mention of anything Judiac raises a rather unfriendly spirit from within him.

This is NOT a personal attack Ernie, and don't take it as such. But it does show evidence of someone, in my humble opinion, who has a 'problem' with his 'jewish' brethren, or at least anything Judaic.

But you are beginning to get a measure of what the prophecy was insofar as it related to the gentiles and Israel, 'for to provoke them to jealousy'.

God has given their mantle over to the gentiles for a time, to provoke Israel to jealousy. They are still, and always will be His 'first love'.

The idea that the US supports Israel is a fallacy in your own mind. The contribution that a high number of VERY rich Jews makes to the American economy, far outweights the 'token' thanks that they give to Israel in aid.

Check your American rich list Ernie, see how many Jews are on it. You will be SHOCKED. They are everywhere, and in every industry imaginable.

The US doesn't so much support the Jews, as the jews support the US. This might be a little fact that you might not like to admit. But opinion never changed truth nor fact.

Shalom