SUPER power TERRORISTS shed innocent blood!

[Guest yod]

Look charlie, there's nothing wrong with discussing whether a ruler has done right or wrong. That would not go against the spirit of this law.

But going any further than that would be.

The problem with the Bush haters is that they will exaggerate and intentionally tell lies designed to defile his character.

I've already pointed out that there is no proof or fact to the accusations and gossip you guys post about Bush. Yet that doesn't seem to deter you from disparaging him.

For your info...you won't find a single post I've written disparaging Clinton. You "might" find that I disagreed with many of his policies but I also agreed with him on Bosnia, welfare reform, and NAFTA

I can judge his character by his actions and utter disregard for the law. He was guilty of perjury. So far...no one has come close to proving that Bush has done ANYTHING illegal or even immoral. Yet you guys all talk like he's the anti-christ!

If Kerry were to win the election there will still be many disagreements I have with him based on factual history of his record. Yes, I think he is less than honorable for the way he spoke disparagingly of our troops while they were still in the field of battle...but you have not, will not, hear me speaking evil of any ruler in authority over me just because I don't like him.

Can you find even one place where I spoke badly of Kerry with ONLY an opinion? No..you can not. You will find that every time I've had a complaint about Kerry there was substantial, provable, and factual reason given.

I respect everyone's right to disagree politically...but that is NOT what we are getting from the Bush haters.

Moveon.org, Michael Moore, and every candidate of the Democrat Party has been slinging lies at him for years now. It's sinful guile. Period.

[AmariYah]

O.K. then... According to Yod- if I am a citizen of Iraq or Palastine or North Korea then I should submit to and willingly serve my ruler because he was placed into his position of power by God. Becuase of your interpretation of that scripture Yod you would have to submit to your "leader" even if it turned out that he was in fact the anit-Christ. As for me I personally mistrusted and disliked Clinton and Bush senior- however being a Christian believer I have in fact prayed for them all including G. W. jr- However I do not submit to them when I perceive that they are going contrary to the clear revealtion of God's word. Nor am I afraid as an American to discuss and debate my perspectives of any of our countries elected or un-elected officials. (as the case may be!)

I can understand how some would prefer to look at some of my opinions as "cursing" or "speaking evil" of our public servants but such is not the case. If I were to point out specific facts and supply quotes to back up said facts about a public servant, if this does not put that individual in a positive light then of coarse those who support him are simply going to cry foul and choose not to acknowledge any of the facts and quotes. Such is most certainly the case with George W. and his greedy and war mongering Administration. Now, if I said that the Bush Admin was greedy and war mongering yet there were no facts to indicate these statements then I could see how one might call it cursing or speaking evil- but since there is ample evidence to show the excessive greed and war mongering attitude of the Bush Admin. THEN IT IS MERELY POINTING OUT WHAT IS ALREADY IN EXISTENCE, (These things are already history!) BUT MANY PEOPLE KEEP INSISTING THAT THE EMPEROR REALLY DOES HAVE FINE CLOTHES ON/ But in reality he is stark naked.

[Guest yod]

So far...no one has come close to proving that Bush has done ANYTHING illegal or even immoral.

I stand by that statement, bro.

"greed" is going to be a tough one for you to prove. You could say that circumstances make YOU think he's greedy but you simply have not proven that greed is his motive. Not sure how you would do that either.

And "war mongering"?

If you disagree with his decision to go to war that would be a position I would respect but the "war mongering" rhetoric is guile....and that is all it is.

You have no proof of that either.

I don't think you have considered the history or the enemy's will to kill us. Many Americans appreciate the fact that Bush is showing the courage to take this battle to the enemy.

Clinton did not.

Notice that I was able to criticize Clinton's policy without disparaging him personally or implying motives without fact.

By the way, that last post of yours says that submitting to authority is "according to Yod"

Wrong. I showed that this is God's will beyond any doubt.

The fact is that christians will have to submit to the anti-christ's authority (if they are here) just like Joseph and Moses were submitted to Pharoah's authority...... and Daniel was submitted to Nebuchadnezzar. They did not sin though...and we know that taking the Mark of the Beast would be sin.

When Daniel was thrown into the lion's den, he went without guile or rebelliion though it was done for worshipping the God of Israel.

BECAUSE he was submitted to Nebuchadnezzar's authority, God was able to be glorified. The same is true of Jesus submitting to Pontias Pilate. It was God's will...and it would have been sin for Jesus not to!

Bush can not be compared to the wickedness of Nebuchadnezzar or Pharoah. You are without excuse for your guile.

A humble man would repent.

[apothanein kerdos]

No need to descredit what you are saying Super-Jew! From my perspective your words speak for themselves...  From what I am reading in the last few posts you are simply making self righteous attacks on Steff without even knowing anything about his personal day to day life! Nothing more/ nothing less...

And you are religiously trying to use the scriptures to tear down a brother perhaps becasue you disagree with his perspective on these things we are discussing. Don't know about anyone else- but that is what it looks like to me- and I am ceertain that this is not a form of "love one another"!

First and foremost, if I were acting like a Pharisee (as you asserted in a previous post) I would then be taking a legalistic viewing of the Word and attempting to apply it to you and others while avoiding it myself. Secondly, if my accusations were made out of self-righteousness then I would have praised how much time I spend serving the Lord. I do not know anything about his personal day to day life, what I do know is by his own admission he only spends about 10 hours a month serving the Lord. This is called observation, not judging. Third, I am not trying to tear him down but put things into perspective for him and for you. The fact is, both of you spend too much time on political opinions then you do on studying the Lord or fufilling His commandments. Both of you have chosen to waste your time on criticizing the government (unbiblical) instead of fufilling the Great Commission. Fourth, how amazingly ironic that you'll tell me I have no right to judge you or Steff because I do not know your personal life yet will quickly turn around and judge Bush without knowing a thing about his personal life. Like I said, in the past few weeks I've met people who know Bush very personally, one of which was lead to the Lord by him. If it is wrong of me to point out to Steff where he is wrong biblically and how his priorities are messed up, then it is equally wrong of you to point out any of Bush's faults.

How did you react and speak about President Clinton Yod?

I didn't like him, I disparged him; guess I'm in big trouble.

How are you gonna react and speak about Kerry if he is elected?

I cannot speak for Yod, yet for myself I did not like Clinton as a leader. At the same time, never did I call him the antichrist, a satanist, or not a child of God. I disagreed with his policies and obviously his morals. At the same time, I never judged him as "not saved" or of satan like so many here have with Bush. I also talked down about his policies and not about him.

As for if Kerry is elected, I will respect the authority in which he holds but talk down against his policies.

O.K. then... According to Yod- if I am a citizen of Iraq or Palastine or North Korea then I should submit to and willingly serve my ruler because he was placed into his position of power by God.

The problem with so many Christians is that they actually believe they ar a part of this world. We are not citizens here, merely visitors. Thus whatever nation we are placed in we are ambassadors to that nation. We are here to inflict the interest of God while at the same time submitting to their laws. So yes, if we are in Iraq or in Palestine we should respect the authority above us. If Fidel Castro is our leader, then we should respect him and his authority.

Face is Amari, you've forgone your calling and true nationality and instead defend something not worth defending.

Oh, and before you try and accuse me of anything again or say I'm wrong, it'd be nice for you to actually use scripture. I know you won't find it in the Constitution, so I know it's probably not that important to you, but if you look in the Bible, I'm sure you'll find it.

[Steff]

Steff...if you are so busy studying God then how is it that you missed this verse?

Exodus 22

28 "You shall not curse God, nor curse a ruler of your people.

Did you see that? God compares disparaging the ruler of your people on par with cursing Him

After all, He has put all rulers in authority

Paul repeats it in Acts 23

5 And Paul said, "I was not aware, brethren, that he was high priest; for it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT SPEAK EVIL OF A RULER OF YOUR PEOPLE.'"

That would be great if he were a Ruler Yod, but he's not, he's a servant of the people and therefore I have every biblical right to criticize him.

I do not know anything about his personal day to day life, what I do know is by his own admission he only spends about 10 hours a month serving the Lord

And again you are making judgements about me SJ, I suggest you re-read what I posted, I said I spend 10 hours a month volunteering at our community center, there are also many other ways to serve the lord.

I might also add that just because you see my name at the bottom of the message board list doesn't mean I'm at the computer, it just means my server is on and the page is up. You have no basis to judge me by how many hours I spend on the message board per month because you have no clue.

Unlike you SJ, I do not have to turn to personal attacks to make my arguments heard. I only hope the lord goes easy on you when you meet him.

Fourth, how amazingly ironic that you'll tell me I have no right to judge you or Steff because I do not know your personal life yet will quickly turn around and judge Bush without knowing a thing about his personal life.

I judge him on his works alone and they don't look too good from here.

[Guest charlie]

LOL!! Yod, you twist more things than anyone I've ever seen on any forum I've ever been on. You waste people's time and energy. Is that the purpose?

[Steff]

Nuff said.

[Guest yod]

does that mean you will now be quiet?

The President of the USA is known internationally as the "leader of the free world"

He is our leader also whether you want to admit it or not. What you have just done is called "self-justification". Nice try but it won't work. You are argueing against the very Word of God.

====================================

Charlie..you are sooo confused. I have to wonder whether you are intentionally misleading or just easily misled. You are too stubborn to examine the scriptures and let the Word of God be true because it doesn't line up with the way you "want" it to.

Would you like to take a poll as to who is "twisting" the facts here? You have about 3 or 4 people who would agree with your side of this debate in the thousands of saints who are on the Boards. Does that tell you anything?

It should.

[Kabowd]

Steff...if you are so busy studying God then how is it that you missed this verse?

Exodus 22

28 "You shall not curse God, nor curse a ruler of your people.

Did you see that? God compares disparaging the ruler of your people on par with cursing Him

After all, He has put all rulers in authority

Paul repeats it in Acts 23

5 And Paul said, "I was not aware, brethren, that he was high priest; for it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT SPEAK EVIL OF A RULER OF YOUR PEOPLE.'"

this is what upsets me most about the Bush haters. Speaking SUCH GUILE about the President goes against the Word of God...yet you guys try to frame it as if your position is the "christian" one.

Look here....even Jesus submits to the authority of a civil ruler!

John 19:10 So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?"

11 Jesus answered, " You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

Jesus spoke NO GUILE of Pontius Pilate though I think we would probably all agree that this trial was a travesty of justice and not a legal conviction.

I don't know...maybe we wouldn't all agree on that?

God's Constitution (the Torah) is a higher law than anything written by men.

and this is repeated in the New Testament. I guess the Lord knew there would be people who would argue against subjection to HIS authority

Romans 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Worth repeating.

[Steff]

He is our leader also whether you want to admit it or not. What you have just done is called "self-justification". Nice try but it won't work. You are argueing against the very Word of God.

We all perform self justification to a point Yod, it doesn't mean my argument is wrong. You can attack me all you want but that doesn't make your argument any more true. Last I checked the ideals in our country were that criticizing our leaders was not only a right but a duty.

Saying critcizing Bush goes against God is bull, you know it and I know it.

If my representative in the world is not acting in a Godly fashion I am going to call him on it. If I'm wrong then God will let me know, but as our founding fathers did not, I'm not going to lay down for a dishonest and disingenuous man either.