Is America the Great Babylon?

[BlindSeeker]

Which nation wielded greater economic power in all of Africa and Australasia 1948-1990?

Britain (not the U.S).

Which nation wields the greatest economic power and dominion in all Africa today?

China (not the U.S).

China owns Africa today (not the U.S or Britain).

Is Britain forcing Israel into land for peace negotiations?

Is China?

Where did China get all its wealth?

Where does OPEC get its wealth?

The correlation of the beast is with Israel . . . what other country had the relationship with Israel since its rebirth to the extent that America has had? Supporting, defending . . . and now demanding she give up her land AND Jerusalem?

And who said the beast had to be an imperialist nation anyway?

[nebula]

Which nation wielded greater economic power in all of Africa and Australasia 1948-1990?

Britain (not the U.S).

Which nation wields the greatest economic power and dominion in all Africa today?

China (not the U.S).

China owns Africa today (not the U.S or Britain).

Is Britain forcing Israel into land for peace negotiations?

Is China?

Where did China get all its wealth?

Where does OPEC get its wealth?

The correlation of the beast is with Israel . . . what other country had the relationship with Israel since its rebirth to the extent that America has had? Supporting, defending . . . and now demanding she give up her land AND Jerusalem?

And who said the beast had to be an imperialist nation anyway?

But these arguments paint a better picture for America being one of the two beast than to be Babylon.

[BlindSeeker]

From the Franck Report

"Scientists have often before been accused of providing new weapons for the mutual destruction of nations, instead of improving their well-being. It is undoubtedly true that the discovery of flying, for example, has so far brought much more misery than enjoyment or profit to humanity. However, in the past, scientists could disclaim direct responsibility for the use to which mankind had put their disinterested discoveries. We cannot take the same attitude now because the success which we have achieved in the development of nuclear power is fraught with infinitely greater dangers than were all the inventions of the past.

All of us, familiar with the present state of nucleonics, live with the vision before our eyes of sudden destruction visited on our own country, of Pearl Harbor disaster, repeated in thousandfold magnification, in every one of our major cities.

"

Part of a letter to the president Truman signed by 68m major scientists who developed the atomic bomb -

"Discoveries of which the people of the United States are not aware may affect the welfare of this nation in the near future. The liberation of atomic power which has been achieved places atomic bombs in the hands of the Army. It places in your hands, as Commander-in-Chief, the fateful decision whether or not to sanction the use of such bombs in the present phase of the war against Japan.

We, the undersigned scientists, have been working in the field of atomic power. Until recently we have had to fear that the United States might be attacked by atomic bombs during this war and that her only defense might lie in a counterattack by the same means. Today, with the defeat of Germany, this danger is averted and we feel impelled to say what follows:

The war has to be brought speedily to a successful conclusion and attacks by atomic bombs may very well be an effective method of warfare. We feel, however, that such attacks on Japan could not be justified, at least not until the terms which will be imposed after the war on Japan were made public in detail and Japan were given an opportunity to surrender.

If such public announcement gave assurance to the Japanese that they could look forward to a life devoted to peaceful pursuits in their homeland and if Japan still refused to surrender our nation might then, in certain circumstances, find itself forced to resort to the use of atomic bombs. Such a step, however, ought not to be made at any time without seriously considering the moral responsibilities which are involved.

The development of atomic power will provide the nations with new means of destruction. The atomic bombs at our disposal represent only the first step in this direction, and there is almost no limit to the destructive power which will become available in the course of their future development. Thus a nation which sets the precedent of using these newly liberated forces of nature for purposes of destruction may have to bear the responsibility of opening the door to an era of devastation on an unimaginable scale.

If after the war a situation is allowed to develop in the world which permits rival powers to be in uncontrolled possession of these new means of destruction, the cities of the United States as well as the cities of other nations will be in continuous danger of sudden annihilation. All the resources of the United States, moral and material, may have to be mobilized to prevent the advent of such a world situation. Its prevention is at present the solemn responsibility of the United States—singled out by virtue of her lead in the field of atomic power.

The added material strength which this lead gives to the United States brings with it the obligation of restraint and if we were to violate this obligation our moral position would be weakened in the eyes of the world and in our own eyes. It would then be more difficult for us to live up to our responsibility of bringing the unloosened forces of destruction under control.

In view of the foregoing, we, the undersigned, respectfully petition: first, that you exercise your power as Commander-in-Chief to rule that the United States shall not resort to the use of atomic bombs in this war unless the terms which will be imposed upon Japan have been made public in detail and Japan knowing these terms has refused to surrender; second, that in such an event the question whether or not to use atomic bombs be decided by you in the light of the consideration presented in this petition as well as all the other moral responsibilities which are involved." (Leo Szilard, His Version of the Facts, pp. 211-212).

General Eisenhower response to the use of the bomb -

"The incident took place in 1945 when Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. I was not, of course, called upon, officially, for any advice or counsel concerning the matter, because the European theater, of which I was the commanding general, was not involved, the forces of Hitler having already been defeated. But the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that

Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.

It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of "face." The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude, almost angrily refuting the reasons I gave for my quick conclusions."(General Eisenhower, The White House Years, pp. 312-313).

For years Osama bin Laden has stated publicly that the United States remains to be punished for using atomic weapons in Japan. It is his desire that America be likewise punished

The word of God -

Re 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:

he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword

. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

[BlindSeeker]

But these arguments paint a better picture for America being one of the two beast than to be Babylon.

In the end there is the union that makes them all somewhat inseparable because they are key players in the end time events.

Again, in Rev 13 just the beast rises up out of the sea, but come the destruction and the explanation in Rev 17 the woman is on the beast. To me they have in a sense become "one flesh" through an unholy union.

[nebula]

But the Beast is the one who kills the woman.

[BlindSeeker]

But the Beast is the one who kills the woman.

The ten horns do . . .

Re 17:12 And

the ten horns

which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And

the ten horns

which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in

their hearts

to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The EU will be the source behind her/our destruction. Remember who started the last 2 world wars?

[lekh l'kha]

But the Beast is the one who kills the woman.

The ten horns do . . .

Re 17:12 And

the ten horns

which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And

the ten horns

which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in

their hearts

to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The EU will be the source behind her/our destruction. Remember who started the last 2 world wars?

More like nuclear-armed Middle Eastern nations such as Iran and Pakistan, in alliance with Syria and Turkey, waging a nuclear war against both the E.U and the U.S.

The ten horns rule with the beast for "one hour" (17:12), and Babylon the Great's destruction comes in "one hour" (18:19). The ten kings "make war against the woman, eat her flesh and burn her with fire". She will be overcome with violence:

"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." (Rev 18:21)

It's a war against religion, because "Babylon the Great" represents the false religious systems of the world. It could also be the destruction of the harlot Christian church by the godless 10 kings who will be ruling with the beast.

It's the same 10 kings who go to war against the Lamb:

"These (ten kings) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." (Rev 17:14).

I really don't see how the U.S.A, whose economic might and superpower status is waxing (within the next 10 years and probably a lot less than that the world will not be using the U.S dollar as the international currency), qualifies as "the beast".

One terrorist attack can destroy the U.S economy in one day. But the U.S economy is already "destroyed" and it's only even more debt that's keeping it going.

In short, the balance of power in the world is shifting very fast out of favor for the U.S.

At this stage there's just far too much speculation involved with trying to identify the beast of Rev.13. I also disagree that the 8th kingdom of chapter 17 which "rises out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition" is not the same as the one rising from the sea in chapter 13 - the ten horns link the two together. And what is the bottomless pit that the beast rises out of? "Global village", "many languages, one voice" (Babylon). An international government - but controlled by the West/Western nations? I don't think so. The West is in more trouble than most of its citizens people know or realize.

[BlindSeeker]

More like nuclear-armed Middle Eastern nations such as Iran and Pakistan, in alliance with Syria and Turkey, waging a nuclear war against both the E.U and the U.S.

The ten horns rule with the beast for "one hour" (17:12), and Babylon the Great's destruction comes in "one hour" (18:19). The ten kings "make war against the woman, eat her flesh and burn her with fire". She will be overcome with violence:

"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." (Rev 18:21)

It's a war against religion, because "Babylon the Great" represents the false religious systems of the world. It could also be the destruction of the harlot Christian church by the godless 10 kings who will be ruling with the beast.

It's the same 10 kings who go to war against the Lamb:

"These (ten kings) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." (Rev 17:14).

I really don't see how the U.S.A, whose economic might and superpower status is waxing (within the next 10 years and probably a lot less than that the world will not be using the U.S dollar as the international currency), qualifies as "the beast".

One terrorist attack can destroy the U.S economy in one day. But the U.S economy is already "destroyed" and it's only even more debt that's keeping it going.

In short, the balance of power in the world is shifting very fast out of favor for the U.S.

At this stage there's just far too much speculation involved with trying to identify the beast of Rev.13. I also disagree that the 8th kingdom of chapter 17 which "rises out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition" is not the same as the one rising from the sea in chapter 13 - the ten horns link the two together. And what is the bottomless pit that the beast rises out of? "Global village", "many languages, one voice" (Babylon). An international government - but controlled by the West/Western nations? I don't think so. The West is in more trouble than most of its citizens people know or realize.

I never stated they were different. It is the 8th beast in 13 and 17. The difference is that the woman isn't pictured on the beast when it rises from the sea, but is when it goes into destruction.

The fact that America is now "waxing" as you say, only goes to confirm its vulnerability right now to be destroyed.

[lekh l'kha]

I never stated they were different. It is the 8th beast in 13 and 17. The difference is that the woman isn't pictured on the beast when it rises from the sea, but is when it goes into destruction.

The fact that America is now "waxing" as you say, only goes to confirm its vulnerability right now to be destroyed.

Okay. Sorry, I misunderstood you. I agree with most of what your first post said.

What I'd like to know is, when the 10 kings go to war against the harlot, are they not actually destroying the throne of the beast in the process?:

"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

(Rev 17:15)

"And the fifth angel poured out his vial (bowl of wrath) upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,"

(Rev 16:10)

Amazingly, the 5th trumpet says:

"And they (the destroying locusts) had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." (Rev 9:11)

It begins:

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit." (Rev 9:1-2)

These locusts are permitted to harm only those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads (9:4).

And another amazing thing is that in-between the gospel going out to every nation, tribe and tongue accompanied with a command to worship God (whose image is Christ), and a warning not to worship the beast or his image, there's a verse that says,

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

(Rev 14:8)

It falls in between these verses:

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters...

... And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

(Rev 14:6-7, 9-10)

In these verses we read that the gospel is going out into all the world accompanied with a command to worship God, and this is contrasted with a warning not to worship the beast and his image, and the reason for this is because "the hour of His (God's) judgment has come", and in-between those verses we are told, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

I don't know how much meaning there is in that, if any - but if "Babylon the Great" refers to the false religions of the world and "she" has fallen, then it makes sense that this would pave the way for the gospel "to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people".

But it's the 10 kings who reign for one hour with the beast (and who give their power and authority to the beast) who destroy the harlot who is called "Babylon the great".

All I know is that we don't have enough info yet in order to correctly identify either the beast that rises from the bottomless pit or the harlot it carries.

[Guest shiloh357]

Which nation wielded greater economic power in all of Africa and Australasia 1948-1990?

Britain (not the U.S).

Which nation wields the greatest economic power and dominion in all Africa today?

China (not the U.S).

China owns Africa today (not the U.S or Britain).

Is Britain forcing Israel into land for peace negotiations?

Is China?

Where did China get all its wealth?

Where does OPEC get its wealth?

The correlation of the beast is with Israel . . . what other country had the relationship with Israel since its rebirth to the extent that America has had? Supporting, defending . . . and now demanding she give up her land AND Jerusalem?

And who said the beast had to be an imperialist nation anyway?

First of all, you have been trying to make the case for the United States' global supremacy. That is the heart of imperialism. That is the goal of imperialism, which is why the US does not fit the description you are trying to force on her. Being a superpower is not equivalent to having "global supremacy."

The ENTIRE WORLD is trying to force Israel's hand into giving up land for peace, not just the US. The EU and the UN are bent on forcing Israel to give up land in exchange for an empty dream of peace with terrorists. And yes, that includes Britain and China.

Where does China get all its wealth? China is a 4,000 year-old nation. They have been a major world power long before the US came on scene. To act like the US made them rich is simply not in alignment with fact.

OPEC is not a nation. OPEC is not rich because of the US. OPEC is not a vassal entity beholden to the US. They set the price on oil. That hardly sounds like someone made rich by the US.