Trinity

[Trinity]

" And the LORD said ....And God said... But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God..." Hosea 1:4,6,7

Read carefully-2 distinct persons.

In Christ,

John W

Great post!

And look at this verse closer.

Hosea 1

7 Yet I will show love to the house of Judah; and I will save them-not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but by the LORD their God."

God said He will save them by Jehovah their God!

[jmwhalen]

Ksalzar writes:

"Jesus was all this, but notice there is nothing thus far about Jesus having to be God to be the ransom. From the beginning on the Bible does not make such a statement about the sacrifice required by God."

______________

Repetiton is key to learning- WITHOUT BLEMISH(Exodus 12:5)=WITHOUT SIN(Hebrews 4:15) -the whole point of "without blemish" is to convey that the redeemer must be God. Remember the The "kinsman redeemer" concept- this explains the why-the redeemer must be both God and man. In Genesis, "The Seed Plot of the Holy Bible", we have the "beginning" of 7(representing completion, perfection) promises/requirements of this redeemer. The redeemer would:

1.be from the human race-Gen. 3:15=seed of a woman(and virgin birth-only a male has a seed)

2. be from a certain section of the human race-Gen. 9:26=Shem

3. be from a certain nation of that section-Gen. 12:1-3=Hebrew

4. be from a certain tribe of that Hebrew nation-Gen. 49:10=Judah

5. be from a certain family of that tribe-2 Sam. 7:16=David

6. be of a certain member of that family-Is. 7:14=Mary

7. be from a certain village belonging to that family member-Micah 5:2-Bethlehem Ephratah(which means "house of bread/fruitful, grow, increase")

According to the Old Testament laws regarding punishment and retribution for a crime(sin), when one was assaulted, robbed, murdered...., the responsibility to bring the criminal to justice and to protect the lives/property of the relatives fell to the nearest "kinsman". This responsibility/obligation was referred to as "redeeming", and the man who had this role was called a "redeemer"('goel' in Hebrew). Thus, the LORD God would use this object lesson to teach that redemption(to buy back/release for the purpose of setting free) is provided by a kinsman redeemer. The kinsman redeemer is someone who is qualified to execute the law of redemption-he is qualified to pay the price of debt. This kinsman redeemer of the Old Testament was a "type" of the Lord Jesus Christ as the Redeemer. There were 4 requirements for redemption:

1. Redeemer must be a near kinsman(Lev. 25:25-"...any of his kin....). The Lord Jesus Christ became a MAN, taking on human form. Thus,

"...THE MAN CHRIST JESUS(emphasis mine)....." 2 Tim. 2:5

"And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood A MAN(emphasis mine) over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did WORSHIP(emphasis mine), and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so." Joshua 5:13-15

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Daniel 7:9

"Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain MAN(emphasis mine) clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude." Daniel 10:5,6

"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters." Rev. 1:13-15

This is "the Alpha and the Omega"=GOD and MAN, none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

This is Paul's argument-"the Lord Jesus"= You must acknowledge Him as Lord=Deity=God. Eventually, all will do this(including Satan and "his gang", and the unsaved), all will acknowledge that He is God(whether willingly, or by force, I am uncertain), as it is written:

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10,11

2.Redeemer must be able to redeem-must be able to pay the whole price of redemption by yourself. The satisfactory price was the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ(Acts 20:28, 1 Peter 1:18,19, Romans 3:24,25..............).

3.The redeemer must not be compromised by his predicament, i.e., the redeemer must be free from that which caused the need for redemption. Thus, the redeemer could not redeem himself. NO SLAVE, for example, COULD REDEEM ANOTHER SLAVE. A person in bondage was in no position to redeem another. This explains the virgin conception. This REQUIRES that the redeemer be God. The Lord Jesus Christ "...knew no sin...."(2 Cor. 5:21-see also 1 John 3:5, 1 Peter 2:22, Hebrews 4:15, John 8:46, Exodus 12:5="YOUR LAMB SHALL BE WITHOUT BLEMISH(emphasis mine)". Only God fits this REQUIREMENT.

4. The redeemer must be willing-must be voluntary:

*"If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD." Leviticus 1:3

* Genesis 22:6 "...they went both of them together..... A "picture"/type of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ voluntarily walking together.

And notice in the Genesis 22 account that Isaac, as a type of Christ, was old enough to carry wood(a picture of the cross) up the mountain. This infers that he was probably at least in his teen years, maybe older. It would have been very unlikely that Abraham, in his advanced years, could have "forced" Isaac onto the altar. Thus, Isaac voluntarily, in faith, offered himself as the sacrifice, just as the Lord Jesus Christ did, as it is written:

"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:18

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit OFFERED HIMSELF(emphasis mine)f without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Hebrews 9:14

Please review the numerous "the angel of the LORD" passages, which clearly points to the LORD(God the Father) and the "angel of the LORD" as distinct, separate "persons", and yet the angel of the LORD, which is the pre-incarnated person of the Lord Jesus Christ(as is the Joshua 5 passage-"captain of the LORD's host"), is also declared as diety. Example:

"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman..." Judges 13:3

"Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A MAN(emphasis mine) of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name..." Judges 13:6

"For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and FELL ON THEIR FACES TO THE GROUND(emphasis mine).

But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN GOD(emphasis mine)." Judges 13: 20-22

[Trinity]

Great Post Im saving it

[toothless]

Ksalzar:

I think I am unable to make a point, however being bought with Christs blood

is a legal requirement, to sin is to violate the law. The purchase of humanity

is clearly outlined in scripture. Christ presents us to the Father as first fruits

of his blood.

I'm sorry you missed the point of the cost to God for mans salvation.

I really added nothing to scripture, I'm more guilty of leaving out the finer

points. The entire scraficial system is about the requirements of the law.

I thought I could break the ice using the legal requirements, and the need

for a supereme sacrafice to fufill them.

Conceptually the idea of sacrafice and redemption is constant through the

scriptures, the fact you can not see the idea of a higher order sacrafice means

we don't share even a portion of common ground.

With that I'll say, may God bless you and your family and all you do.

May God shine on you and lead you where he would have you to be.

[toothless]

JMWHALEN:

Thank you for that great post, you sure put meat on the anemic post of mine.

Or should I say beside. Bill

[jmwhalen]

JMWHALEN:

Thank you for that great post, you sure put meat on the anemic post of mine.

Or should I say beside. Bill

Bill:

Thank you for your gracious words(Col. 4:6, Luke 4:22).

Thank the LORD, not me. The Lord Jesus Christ is best magnified when I stay in the background(Philippians 1:20).

In and with Christ,

John W

[Botz]

Kzalzar.

I think Jim Whalen has presented you with some fine exergesis.

I have not ignored the questions you asked before...but I think the answers have already been given via the other posts.

I would say that I think you totally miss the point of the chapters in Isaiah that talk about G-d.

1. If you truely understood what is being said in chapters 40-50 in Isaiah...at the very least you would see that no one can even approach anything resembling the awesome nature of G-d Almighty...and yet both Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Scriptually defined with words that share the Fathers glory!

You said...I understand this, but it does not answer what I have already brought forth. Please explain to me then how we can have the same glory as Christ. Do you think this makes us God also?

I think it is fairly obvious you do NOT understand what Scripture is getting at in Isaiah.....No one comes within light years of comparison to the revealed attributes of G-d Almighty...and yet we see.....!!

You said...I don't doubt the character or nature of God, I trust in God's revelation of Himself. The issue here is whether or not God's revelation of Himself in the Bible teaches us the trinity.

I think the point of the doctrine of the Trinity is an attempt to safe-guard sound teaching on the Character,Nature,and Substance of G-d...BECAUSE G-ds revelation of Himself is also revealed in the L-rd Jesus and the Holy Ghost...and to deny this is to confuse and confound the very being of G-d.

  The word Trinity is way of explaining the belief in one God revealed through three distinct persons.  Some people get all hung up on the issue of the Bible teaching there is only one God.  No where does the Bible state God is only one person, but it does say God is one in Deuteronomy 6:4.  The word for one there is the Hebrew word Echad, which means a composite unity.  For examples of this consider Genesis 1:5, Genesis 2:24, Ezra 2:64, Ezekiel 37:17 where the same Hebrew word Echad is used and means one in unity, not in number! 

Your whole arguement is that you think you have detected inferiority in the nature of Jesus..and yet you cannot see how Jesus is described in terms of equality with the Father...Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Just in passing if you have a look at what is said in Hebrews and then have a look at a section from Isaiah that I was rattling on about you will get a further glimpse of the implications.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isa 44:25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish

I hope this helps.

[Trinity]

you got it Botz

[ksalzar]

Okay, I kindly requested that we handle this a passage at a time. What has happened is that I have got swamped with responses on all different topics, from Isaiah to Hebrews.

If there were as many people holding my position as there were holding the position you all hold we could have a discussion this exhaustive this fast. As it is I am one man, so can we please pick a specific section of scripture and stick to that until we have thouroughly discussed it.

-Kind Regards

Kyle.

[ksalzar]

Form of God? Fine, If you you in the form of a bird are you a bird? if your in the Form of a dog are you a dog? Yes! so that means if you are in the Form of God you are God!

No Adam was not EQUAL to God!

Genesis 3:5

"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Satan was talking in this verse to Eve and he was trying to deceive Eve into thinking she will be like God, But she never was going to, because Satan lied to her. They never where EQUAL.

Jesus was Equal with God on the Other hand.

Hebrews 1:8

But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Hmm, I'm confused by your responses. I'm not sure you fully understood my post.

I never said Adam was equal with God...

Answer me two things please.

First, what does the word "form" mean?

Second, what does the word "grasped" mean?

As for Hebrews 1:8 that is a quote taken from Psalm 45 which was originally applied to the king of the time, either David or Saul. So does that mean that the king of the time was also part of the Godhead?

Edited August 23, 2004 by ksalzar