Trinity

[ksalzar]

You show your lack of understanding of what sin is, and you refuse to understand that the LORD God was showing you "through a type" that the redeemer must be God=WITHOUT BLEMISH.

Sin is not wrong doing, it is wrong being. Adam was innocent, but He was He did not have the rigtheousness of God. Children, in your example here, are considered innocent, having no knowledge of the difference between good and evil(nor did Adam and Eve prior to the fall). I showed you the requirements of the redeemer after the fall-you can deny it, but your denial in no way does affects the truth.

You ask "What about" hypos, showing that you do not believe God is just as Genesis 18:25 says. Forget about the "hypos", and hear the Lord Jesus Christ's own testimony that He was God:

I'm speechless at these comments. I mean, wow. Please attack me more, that will convince me.

You obviously know nothing of me or my relationship with God, making the statement "you do not believe God is just". I do not appreciate any of these comments. I wonder if you would say these things to me if we were to talk face to face. What is it we are supposed to do? Build each other up speaking words seasoned with salt, graceful.

Why would you even make personal attacks like that? Prove yourself biblicaly and let me learn. Personal attacks only tear down, they do not edify. Ugh, good night for now.

Edited August 24, 2004 by ksalzar

[Trinity]

Look i now him and i know what he ment by it he ment no attack on you i promice(sp)

Do you want me to get into the Greek and Hebrew and at the Surondings around that scripture? ill do so.

[jmwhalen]

kslazar writes:

"I'm speechless at these comments. I mean, wow. Please attack me more, that will convince me.

You obviously know nothing of me or my relationship with God, making the statement "you do not believe God is just". I do not appreciate any of these comments. I wonder if you would say these things to me if we were to talk face to face. What is it we are supposed to do? Build each other up speaking words seasoned with salt, graceful.

Why would you even make personal attacks like that? Prove yourself biblicaly and let me learn. Personal attacks only tear down, they do not edify. Ugh, good night for now."

________________

You fail to distinguish between tolerance for people vs. tolerance of doctrine. We are to tolerate people, but we are not to tolerate false doctrine. "All mushrooms are not good"-some mushrooms are poisonous. I will continue to call people like yourself that deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. You fail to distinguish attacks on what you say from your person. The Lord Jesus Christ was the best preacher that ever lived, and you apparently have not read His scathing words to those that promote false doctrine.

Funny, people seem to make judgements about life/death matters in the physical world, but not the spiritual. If I said it is OK for children to smoke pot, and someone corrected me on this, should I feel that person was making personal attacks on me? Should I say "You are not building me up(edifying)?" Should I say "Please speak words seasoned with salt?" NONSENSE. Those who say it is OK for children to smoke pot should be rebuked sharply! And I will rebuke sharply people like yourself who deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. If this hurts your feelings, so be it; I am to be approved of God(2 Tim. 2:15), and not a "man pleaser". My reputation is not important to me, and more importantly, it is not important to the The LORD GOD. I am to be faithful, not necessarily successful, in proclaiming that Jesus Christ is Emmanuel-"GOD WITH US".

The Lord Jesus Christ is God, and some day you will acknowledge it. My charge is to tell you this truth now-it will do you no good after you have died. If you feel this is a "personal attack", then you have an unbiblical view of discernment of the truth from error.

I love people enough to tell them the truth, whether they want to hear it or not. When you are ill, you do not need a placebo and words such as "You will be OK".

You need a remedy for the sickness.

I would say this to an angel from heaven face to face if he denies that Jesus Christ is God(Galatians Chapter 1).

I will say no more on the subject. You say "Prove yourself biblicaly" You have been shown that Jesus Christ is God, and I have shown you the Saviour's own words. So, you have no choice-He is either God or He is a liar.

I know that He is God.

In Christ,

John Whalen

[Trinity]

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Now, When Jesus had said "I am the light of the world" During the week of this feast, each family was to live in a small temporary dwelling (

[BigD]

Was your birth father God?

Are you implying that Jesus

[Guest Berkana]

The doctrine of the Trinity depends on two things, both supported in scripture

Some people have argued that the Trinity is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, and is therefore a political construction that was simply declared to be doctrine at the Council of Nicea, rather than Biblical truth. This is simply not true; the doctrine of the Trinity is inferred from Scripture.

Even though the term for "trinity" is nowhere found in the Bible, the term merely summarizes an idea that Christians had inferred from various passages. To put it simply the doctrine of the Trinity depends on two points, which if shown to be true, must mean the that the godhead has multiple persons in it (in this case, no more than and no less than three.):

• The divinity of the Messiah
  
• The Personhood of the Holy Spirit
  

The Father is God (in the godhead, that is), there is no doubt of that. If the Messiah can be shown to be the Son, and the Holy Spirit (undoubtedly divine, as I will show you) can be shown to be a personal being, then God must be not a singularity, nor a duality, but a trinity of persons.

The doctrine of the trinity is not that there are three gods in one; it is that there is one god, but that this one god has three persons in the godhead. (The key idea is that "person" != "god". We can have one god of three persons; there is no contradiction.) The Old and New Testaments are both in agreement that there is only one god, but both the Old and New Testaments imply that there are multiple divine persons in this god. Infact, one of the names of God in the Old Testament is Elohim, which is a plural form.

The Divinity of the Messiah

(For the sake of clarity, I'll start by arguing for duality rather than trinity by considering the issue of whether the Messiah (a.k.a. the Christ) was the son of God according to the Bible, and whether this makes the Messiah a second person in the godhead. Later, I'll address the issue of the Holy Spirit.)

The question of whether the Messiah was divine is pretty clearly settled if the New Testament is your prooftext. In the all four of the gospels, Jesus makes claims to divinity (both implied and explicit), and his divinity is expounded on all over the epistles as well as in various verses in the gospel according to John. Since this is not much in question, I'll spare you the detailed explanation from the New Testament about the Messiah's divinity and his union with God the Father; instead, I'll focus on the Old Testament prooftext for the divinity of the Messiah.

The following yet-unfulfilled prophetic Psalm is clear that the Messiah (the anointed one) is the son of God.

Psalm 2

Why do the nations conspire

and the peoples plot in vain?

The kings of the earth take their stand

and the rulers gather together

against YHWH

and against his Anointed One.

"Let us break their chains," they say,

"and throw off their fetters."

The One enthroned in heaven laughs;

the Lord scoffs at them.

Then he rebukes them in his anger

and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,

"I have installed my King

on Zion, my holy hill."

I will proclaim the decree of YHWH:

He said to me, "You are my Son;

today I have begotten you.

Ask of me,

and I will make the nations your inheritance,

the ends of the earth your possession.

You will rule them with an iron scepter;

you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

Therefore, you kings, be wise;

be warned, you rulers of the earth.

Serve YHWH with fear

and rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry

and you be destroyed in your way,

for his wrath can flare up in a moment.

Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

The following passage makes it clear that the "Son of God" is understood to be of the same substance or quality of the godhead, making Him equal with God:

John 5:16-18

So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

The following verses are Messianic prophecies from the Old Testament. The Highlighted verses imply that the Messiah is divine.

Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born,

to us a son is given,

and the government will be on his shoulders.

And he will be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Father of eternity ["father of eternity" is the more literal translation], Prince of Peace.

(Digression: Christians take this last title to mean peace between God and man; persecution and painful conflict with loved ones over faith convictions is promised to followers of Jesus.)

Micah 5:2

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,

though you are small among the clans of Judah,

out of you will come for me

one who will be ruler over Israel,

whose origins are from of old,

from days of eternity"

The above verses, in conjunction with the huge body of prooftext from the New Testament that I have not quoted, show very clearly that the Godhead is at least a duality, since the Messiah is divine, being of the same substance and power as the Father.

The Personhood of the Holy Spirit

The divine Holy Spirit is not a notion that was come up with in New Testament Times; throughout the Old Testament, even from the very first book, the Spirit is mentioned:

Genesis 1:1-2

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Psalm 51:10-12

Create in me a pure heart, O God,

and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Do not cast me from your presence

nor take your Holy Spirit from me.

Restore to me the joy of your salvation

and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

Isaiah 63:7-10, 13-14

I will tell of the kindnesses of YHWH,

the deeds for which he is to be praised,

according to all YHWH has done for us-

yes, the many good things he has done

for the house of Israel,

according to his compassion and many kindnesses.

He said, "Surely they are my people,

sons who will not be false to me";

and so he became their Savior.

In all their distress he too was distressed,

and the angel of his presence saved them.

In his love and mercy he redeemed them;

he lifted them up and carried them

all the days of old.

Yet they rebelled

and grieved his Holy Spirit.

So he turned and became their enemy

and he himself fought against them.

. . . Like a horse in open country,

they did not stumble;

like cattle that go down to the plain,

they were given rest by the Spirit of YHWH.

This is how you guided your people

to make for yourself a glorious name.

The notion that the "Spirit of YHWH" was something divine is pretty clear, but the thing that establishes the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is a personal being is that the Holy Spirit can be grieved; grief, or any emotion, is considered a trait signifying personality. In other words, the Holy Spirit is a divine person, and therefore is part of the godhead. Here are some more verses that support the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30

. . . And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

Acts 5:29-32

Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead--whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, *whom* God has given to those who obey him."

Acts 21:11

Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.' " [personhood is implied in the highlighted text.]

Once personhood can be established from prooftext, the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is a third person in the trinity is established.

This response has become longer than I intended. Anyhow, I just wanted to point out, the doctrine of the trinity of the Godhead was not declared to be doctrine at Nicea as a political construct between theologians and politicians; it was recognized by Christians before then because it was inferred from the Bible, which was divinely inspired. I'll conclude with the verse that has all three persons of the godhead present in some manifestation:

Mark 1:9-11

At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

[ksalzar]

kslazar writes:

"I'm speechless at these comments. I mean, wow. Please attack me more, that will convince me.

You obviously know nothing of me or my relationship with God, making the statement "you do not believe God is just". I do not appreciate any of these comments. I wonder if you would say these things to me if we were to talk face to face. What is it we are supposed to do? Build each other up speaking words seasoned with salt, graceful.

Why would you even make personal attacks like that? Prove yourself biblicaly and let me learn. Personal attacks only tear down, they do not edify. Ugh, good night for now."

________________

You fail to distinguish between tolerance for people vs. tolerance of doctrine. We are to tolerate people, but we are not to tolerate false doctrine. "All mushrooms are not good"-some mushrooms are poisonous. I will continue to call people like yourself that deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. You fail to distinguish attacks on what you say from your person. The Lord Jesus Christ was the best preacher that ever lived, and you apparently have not read His scathing words to those that promote false doctrine.

Funny, people seem to make judgements about life/death matters in the physical world, but not the spiritual. If I said it is OK for children to smoke pot, and someone corrected me on this, should I feel that person was making personal attacks on me? Should I say "You are not building me up(edifying)?" Should I say "Please speak words seasoned with salt?" NONSENSE. Those who say it is OK for children to smoke pot should be rebuked sharply! And I will rebuke sharply people like yourself who deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. If this hurts your feelings, so be it; I am to be approved of God(2 Tim. 2:15), and not a "man pleaser". My reputation is not important to me, and more importantly, it is not important to the The LORD GOD. I am to be faithful, not necessarily successful, in proclaiming that Jesus Christ is Emmanuel-"GOD WITH US".

The Lord Jesus Christ is God, and some day you will acknowledge it. My charge is to tell you this truth now-it will do you no good after you have died. If you feel this is a "personal attack", then you have an unbiblical view of discernment of the truth from error.

I love people enough to tell them the truth, whether they want to hear it or not. When you are ill, you do not need a placebo and words such as "You will be OK".

You need a remedy for the sickness.

I would say this to an angel from heaven face to face if he denies that Jesus Christ is God(Galatians Chapter 1).

I will say no more on the subject. You say "Prove yourself biblicaly" You have been shown that Jesus Christ is God, and I have shown you the Saviour's own words. So, you have no choice-He is either God or He is a liar.

I know that He is God.

In Christ,

John Whalen

This is not true, you have not shown the savior is God.

Jesus statement of "I AM" is not even gramatically used the same as God's decleration of His name in Exodus.

Galatians chapter 1 says nothing about denying Jesus is God.

You have yet to address the objections I have made to the scriptures we have discussed on this thread so far. And now you throw out more scriptures, moving onto the "I AM" statements of Jesus. What about my points on John 10, what about my points on Phil 2, what about my points on Col 1?

I am perfectly content to discuss Jesus' "I AM" statements with you as well, but please answer my objections to the interpretations put forth for the other passages.

[ksalzar]

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Now, When Jesus had said "I am the light of the world" During the week of this feast, each family was to live in a small temporary dwelling (

[Trinity]

Do you believe Jesus made the heavens and the earth?

[Trinity]

PART 1

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Isaiah 45

12 It is I who made the earth

and created mankind upon it.

My own hands stretched out the heavens;

I marshaled their starry hosts.

So, its clear that God made the Heavens and the Earth

PART 2

Jesus made the Heavens and the Earth.

Colossians 1

16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Red: Creator

Purple: He is before Everything and anything.

Blue: Sustainer

Every thing was made by Jesus and fir Jesus.

Well, if Jesus made the Heavens and the Earth, and in the Old Testament it said God himself made the Heavens and the Earth, That makes Jesus God, Because God said I made the Everything myself, But in the New Testament we see Jesus made everything.