Trinity

[ksalzar]

Colossians 1

16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

You try to prove your theory on that verse by saying IN and ON

But i Say Jesus is God by saying

"For by him ALL THINGS WERE CREATED: things in heaven and on earth."

Ill translate it for you

For Heaven and Earth did He create and everything else, All things in hevaen and earth.

If you read in Gen. there is Just one creater of all things in Heaven and things on Earth and that Is GOD.

Could you answer these questions for me?

13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferrred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Are these two verses in reference to post-resurrection, pre-resurrection or both?

Are these two verses in reference to us being a new creation? If so do we have a new physical body yet?

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Is this verse in reference to Jesus post-resurrection, pre-resurrection or both?

17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Is this verse in reference to Jesus post-resurrection, pre-resurrection or both?

18 He is {also} head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Is this verse in reference to Jesus post-resurrection, pre-resurrection or both?

19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in HIm,

20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Are these verses in reference to post-resurrection, pre-resurrection or both?

[ksalzar]

Those who typically have no argument use the following tactics:

1. Use standard cliches such as "you need to look at the context

[ksalzar]

2. Use supposed "good intention" words/phrases like "honest", "Let me be frank" Translation? Beware-warning-these type of words should immediately "set off the alarm". Saleslesmen and politicians throw in these cliches every other sentence. Here are your words:

"an honest look at scripture

[ksalzar]

3. Use the old, reliable "I am a victim/"that's mean spirited"/"can't we all get along(ala Rodney King)"/"don't criticize my ideas and hurt my feeling"/"that's being judgemental"/"you are so intolerant"

Edited August 28, 2004 by ksalzar

[ksalzar]

4. If 1-3 above fail, use this approach:1" I don't like what this 'version' says, let us look at what the other 'versions' say-there is gotta be a translation that supports my doctrine(just ask the Mormons and Catholics which 'version' they use)", 2"L et's see what 'the Scholars' say-we are too dumb to figure this out by ourselves-perhaps a priest or the Watch Tower Society can give us a 'better understanding of what I am really means'", 3. Let's look at a Greek lexicon, despite the fact that I know no Greek, I know nobody that speeks Greek, have never been in a fraternity, and don't even consult or own an English dictionary, 4."Let's look at the grammar-it really doesn't mean what it says- despite the fact that I flunked diagramming sentences in grade school"

Edited August 28, 2004 by ksalzar

[Guest Calamity]

Hi again, Kyle. To add to the "Thomas" reference, here is one more:

Heb. 1

[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

I think that Jesus being God is a necessary part of the Trinity, and am not intending to change the point of the thread.

[ksalzar]

Hi again, Kyle. To add to the "Thomas" reference, here is one more:

Heb. 1

[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

I think that Jesus being God is a necessary part of the Trinity, and am not intending to change the point of the thread.

You are correct in thinking that Jesus being God is a necessary part of the trinity. I used to be convinced that those verses you put forth prove Jesus is God also, but now I am not convinced; here is why:

First, doubting Thomas:

Jesus says the following in John 10:

John 10:33-36

33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?

35 If He called them gods to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broken -

36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

Here the Jews thought Jesus was making himself out to be God in verse 33.

Jesus reply though, is to show where in the Scripture God the Father has called other men "god" eventhough they are not The One True God, and this was not blasphemous.

Jesus of course was not making the point that there are multiple God's, for we all agree there is only one God, rather he points us to a place in Scripture (Scripture which is infallible, "cannot be broken") where the word "god" is used of men without making them God.

This is why the doubting Thomas verse is not convincing to me, because these Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal with God in John 10. Jesus reply is to point out other men whom God called "gods" but were obviously not "equal with God".

As to Hebrews 1:5-7, they simply show Jesus is the Son of God; which I agree with.

Hebrews 1:8 is where it is said of Jesus, "O God", and here is why I'm not convinced this proves Jesus is God:

Hebrews 1:8 is a quote of Psalm 45:

Psalm 45

1 My heart overflows with a good theme

I address my verses to the King;

My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

2 You are fairer than the sons of men;

Grace is poured upon Your lips;

Therefore God has blessed You forever.

3 Gird Your sword on Your thigh,

O Mighty One,

In Your splendor and Your majesty!

4 And in Your majesty ride on victoriously,

For the cause of truth and meekness

and righteousness;

Let Your right hand teach You awesome things.

5 Your arrows are sharp;

The peoples fall under You;

Your arrows are in the heart of the King's enemies.

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

With the oil of Joy above Your fellows.

8 All Your garments are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;

Out of ivory palaces stringed

instruments have made You glad.

9 Kings' daughters are among Your noble ladies;

At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir,

10 Listen, O daughter, give attention

and incline your ear:

Forget your peole and your father's house;

11 Then the King will desire your beauty.

Because He is your Lord, bow down to Him.

12 The daughter of Tyre will come with a girft;

The rich among the people will seek your favor.

13 The King's daughter is all glorious within;

Her clothing is interwoven with gold.

14 She will be led to the King in embroidered work

The virgins, her companions who follow her,

Will be brought to You.

15 They will be led forth with gladness and rejoicing;

They will enter into the King's palace.

16 In place of your fathers will be your sons;

You shall make them princes in all the earth.

17 I will cause Your name to be remember in all generations;

Therefore the people will give You thanks forever and ever.

This Psalm was written originally for the King of the time, either David or Solomon, by a choir director.

Since this is the case, these words apply to the King of the time also, and the author of Hebrews has rightfully applied them to Jesus now since he is established on the throne of David.

My objection is that are we willing to concede that the King of the time, David or Solomon (whichever it was written for), is God also? For the words were applied to that King originally, and now are applied to Christ at the fullness of the times.

[Guest Calamity]

Hi again, Kyle. To add to the "Thomas" reference, here is one more:

Heb. 1

[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

I think that Jesus being God is a necessary part of the Trinity, and am not intending to change the point of the thread.

You are correct in thinking that Jesus being God is a necessary part of the trinity. I used to be convinced that those verses you put forth prove Jesus is God also, but now I am not convinced; here is why:

First, doubting Thomas:

Jesus says the following in John 10:

John 10:33-36

33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?

35 If He called them gods to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broken -

36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

Here the Jews thought Jesus was making himself out to be God in verse 33.

Jesus reply though, is to show where in the Scripture God the Father has called other men "god" eventhough they are not The One True God, and this was not blasphemous.

Jesus of course was not making the point that there are multiple God's, for we all agree there is only one God, rather he points us to a place in Scripture (Scripture which is infallible, "cannot be broken") where the word "god" is used of men without making them God.

This is why the doubting Thomas verse is not convincing to me, because these Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal with God in John 10. Jesus reply is to point out other men whom God called "gods" but were obviously not "equal with God".

As to Hebrews 1:5-7, they simply show Jesus is the Son of God; which I agree with.

Hebrews 1:8 is where it is said of Jesus, "O God", and here is why I'm not convinced this proves Jesus is God:

Hebrews 1:8 is a quote of Psalm 45:

Psalm 45

1 My heart overflows with a good theme

I address my verses to the King;

My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

2 You are fairer than the sons of men;

Grace is poured upon Your lips;

Therefore God has blessed You forever.

3 Gird Your sword on Your thigh,

O Mighty One,

In Your splendor and Your majesty!

4 And in Your majesty ride on victoriously,

For the cause of truth and meekness

and righteousness;

Let Your right hand teach You awesome things.

5 Your arrows are sharp;

The peoples fall under You;

Your arrows are in the heart of the King's enemies.

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

With the oil of Joy above Your fellows.

8 All Your garments are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;

Out of ivory palaces stringed

instruments have made You glad.

9 Kings' daughters are among Your noble ladies;

At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir,

10 Listen, O daughter, give attention

and incline your ear:

Forget your peole and your father's house;

11 Then the King will desire your beauty.

Because He is your Lord, bow down to Him.

12 The daughter of Tyre will come with a girft;

The rich among the people will seek your favor.

13 The King's daughter is all glorious within;

Her clothing is interwoven with gold.

14 She will be led to the King in embroidered work

The virgins, her companions who follow her,

Will be brought to You.

15 They will be led forth with gladness and rejoicing;

They will enter into the King's palace.

16 In place of your fathers will be your sons;

You shall make them princes in all the earth.

17 I will cause Your name to be remember in all generations;

Therefore the people will give You thanks forever and ever.

This Psalm was written originally for the King of the time, either David or Solomon, by a choir director.

Since this is the case, these words apply to the King of the time also, and the author of Hebrews has rightfully applied them to Jesus now since he is established on the throne of David.

My objection is that are we willing to concede that the King of the time, David or Solomon (whichever it was written for), is God also? For the words were applied to that King originally, and now are applied to Christ at the fullness of the times.

I believe in the Psalms/Hebrews text the word "gods" is referring to earthly judges in the Old Testament. They had the power of literal life or death in their rulings over the people. You can read in Exodus (chapters 21 & 22) and see more in detail. Here is a short commentary on that, and a verse that calls the judges "gods":

D. Guzik study guide:

4. (34-39) Jesus reasons with them on the basis of Scripture (quoting from Psalm 82) and His works

a. The judges of Psalm 82 were called "gods" because in their office they determined the fate of other men

i. Also, in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9, God calls earthly judges "gods"

b. Jesus is saying "if God gives these unjust judges the title "gods" because of their office, why do you consider it blasphemy that I call Myself the "Son of God" in light of the testimony of Me and My works?"

Exodus 22

28: Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

[ksalzar]

Hi again, Kyle. To add to the "Thomas" reference, here is one more:

Heb. 1

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

I think that Jesus being God is a necessary part of the Trinity, and am not intending to change the point of the thread.
You are correct in thinking that Jesus being God is a necessary part of the trinity. I used to be convinced that those verses you put forth prove Jesus is God also, but now I am not convinced; here is why:



First, doubting Thomas:
Jesus says the following in John 10:
John 10:33-36
33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?
35 If He called them gods to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broken -
36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
Here the Jews thought Jesus was making himself out to be God in verse 33.

Jesus reply though, is to show where in the Scripture God the Father has called other men "god" eventhough they are not The One True God, and this was not blasphemous.

Jesus of course was not making the point that there are multiple God's, for we all agree there is only one God, rather he points us to a place in Scripture (Scripture which is infallible, "cannot be broken") where the word "god" is used of men without making them God.

This is why the doubting Thomas verse is not convincing to me, because these Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal with God in John 10. Jesus reply is to point out other men whom God called "gods" but were obviously not "equal with God".





As to Hebrews 1:5-7, they simply show Jesus is the Son of God; which I agree with.

Hebrews 1:8 is where it is said of Jesus, "O God", and here is why I'm not convinced this proves Jesus is God:

Hebrews 1:8 is a quote of Psalm 45:
Psalm 45
1 My heart overflows with a good theme
I address my verses to the King;
My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 You are fairer than the sons of men;
Grace is poured upon Your lips;
Therefore God has blessed You forever.

3 Gird Your sword on Your thigh,
O Mighty One,
In Your splendor and Your majesty!
4 And in Your majesty ride on victoriously,
For the cause of truth and meekness
and righteousness;
Let Your right hand teach You awesome things.
5 Your arrows are sharp;
The peoples fall under You;
Your arrows are in the heart of the King's enemies.

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of Joy above Your fellows.
8 All Your garments are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;
Out of ivory palaces stringed
instruments have made You glad.
9 Kings' daughters are among Your noble ladies;
At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir,

10 Listen, O daughter, give attention
and incline your ear:
Forget your peole and your father's house;
11 Then the King will desire your beauty.
Because He is your Lord, bow down to Him.
12 The daughter of Tyre will come with a girft;
The rich among the people will seek your favor.

13 The King's daughter is all glorious within;
Her clothing is interwoven with gold.
14 She will be led to the King in embroidered work
The virgins, her companions who follow her,
Will be brought to You.
15 They will be led forth with gladness and rejoicing;
They will enter into the King's palace.

16 In place of your fathers will be your sons;
You shall make them princes in all the earth.
17 I will cause Your name to be remember in all generations;
Therefore the people will give You thanks forever and ever.
This Psalm was written originally for the King of the time, either David or Solomon, by a choir director.

Since this is the case, these words apply to the King of the time also, and the author of Hebrews has rightfully applied them to Jesus now since he is established on the throne of David.

My objection is that are we willing to concede that the King of the time, David or Solomon (whichever it was written for), is God also? For the words were applied to that King originally, and now are applied to Christ at the fullness of the times.
I believe in the Psalms/Hebrews text the word "gods" is referring to earthly judges in the Old Testament. They had the power of literal life or death in their rulings over the people. You can read in Exodus (chapters 21 & 22) and see more in detail. Here is a short commentary on that, and a verse that calls the judges "gods":

D. Guzik study guide:

4. (34-39) Jesus reasons with them on the basis of Scripture (quoting from Psalm 82) and His works

a. The judges of Psalm 82 were called "gods" because in their office they determined the fate of other men

i. Also, in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9, God calls earthly judges "gods"

b. Jesus is saying "if God gives these unjust judges the title "gods" because of their office, why do you consider it blasphemy that I call Myself the "Son of God" in light of the testimony of Me and My works?"

Exodus 22

28: Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.


I agree completely.

So in this passage I see a parallel between men who were appointed to authority by God, men whom the word of God came to, as judges; and Jesus who was appointed, set apart as a ruler and a judge by God.

Here is a little something I have typed up on my view of the passage previously:Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?
Jesus quotes from verse 6a of Psalm 82 in reply to these particular Jews who were accusing him of blasphemy. Notice that part b of verse 6 says "sons of the Most High" which is the title Jesus is claiming for himself("Son of God"), to which the Jews are having problems.to whom the word of God came
This phrase is an important part to understanding Jesus response in this situation. The word of God came to the people in this quote in a unique way. The word of God comes to me or you in the sense that we read the Bible.

The people that Psalm 82:6 refers to were judges and rulers. People who acted as agents of divine judgment, these men were to interpret and explain God's word.

This is similar to Jesus who was "sanctified", or set apart, and "sent into the world". The word of God came to Jesus. Let us look at Hebrews 1:
Hebrews 1
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son...
We see here that "long ago" God spoke through the prophets. The word of God came to the prophets and they related the word to men. In the same way "in these last days" the word of God has come to Jesus, and Jesus has declared God's word to us.

Look at Hebrews 2:
Hebrews 2
1 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.
2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,
4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
The word of God has come to Jesus and Jesus has declared it.

Indeed, statements similar to the one we find in John 12:49-50 are very common:
John 12:49-50
49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment - what to say and what to speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."
The word of God came to Jesus: "Father...has himself given me a commandment" and "the Father has told me".
God has sent Jesus: "the Father who sent me".

We have another parallel between Jesus and these men of Psalm 86 who were agents of divine judgment in Acts:
Acts 10:42
And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as a Judge of the living and the dead.





This final statement is a strong one from my understanding. Jesus has been appointed by God as a Judge, just as these men in Psalm 86 were.


I see this as relevant to the doubting Thomas declareation, because Jesus is pointing out right here how men can be called "gods" and "sons of the Most High" without it meaning they are the One True God. Edited August 29, 2004 by ksalzar

[Guest Calamity]

Then, why is the "god" referring to judges in a lower case 'g', and the God referring to Jesus, in the Thomas reference, a capital 'G'? At least in the KJV it is, I don't know about other verisons.

And, why were the Pharisees so offended by Jesus, saying He was making Himself equal to God, if that's not what Jesus meant? That's obviously what they understood Him to be saying, when he said he was the Son of God.

John.5

[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Phil.2

[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

One more question, then I am going to have to get off for a while. What were the charges that were brought against Jesus before He was crucified? Was blasphemy one?