nebula Posted October 7, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 7, 2010 I could likewise go sit on my bed and 'humminahumminahummina' for 45 minutes and hope that God gets it, but its not really necessary. All I'm really doing is babbling. Prove that this is what we are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted October 7, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2010 You do realize you are making the argument that if it is foolish to your understanding then it isn't God, don't you? To your first statement, as Paul says, it edifies my spirit. As for an "emotional lift," there are times when I'd rather pray mentally than speak verbally at all, and when I pray in tongues during those times there is no emotional lift at all. Really, you should not assume motives on us like this. As for the need to know what the heck is going on, do you know how many times in the Bible the Lord baffled people's minds and moved in absurd ways? Like the story of Gideon's army! Or Jesus spitting on a man's eyes. As for God's benefit, how about your humility and simple child-like faith being for God's benefit? How about your spirit being edified being for God's benefit? How about anything that gets you to talk to Him, whether with your mind or with your spirit, being for His benefit? And I have yet to hear anyone prove that what I speak is "alien babble." Actually, what I said was, the only benefit I could see was an emotional lift. Beyond that, I really see no benefit. If you say you get no emotional lift, I believe you...which essentially removes the only feasible benefit I can see. God does not move in absurd ways, nor is he the author of confusion. I can't think of anything more confusing than speaking in a way that is completely unintelligible to yourself and those around you. Wait...first you wanted to argue that tongues being for God's benefit was a 'bizarre argument'...now you want to argue that it is beneficial to God? Why do I have to speak in tongues to have child-like faith and humility? Why must I speak in tongues "whether with your mind or with your spirit" in order to talk to him for anyones benefit? It is simply not necessary to speak in tongues to achieve those standards. If what you speak is foreign or unknown...it is by definition 'alien.' I also don't believe that I claimed that tongues was foolish to my understanding. I have a pretty good grasp of what tongues is. I am simply of the opinion that it is not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted October 7, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2010 Prove that this is what we are doing. Prove that its not. lol. Eh, forget it...it doesn't matter what you are doing, or how you do it. It's still not necessary, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted October 7, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2010 I think you have a bad understanding of tongues. For me, wether it's more primitive or more advanced I don't know I can't interpret, I do know that it's praising our Glorious King, and for me it's not to spread the gospel, but to get into a state of worship and filled with His Spirit. It deepens my intimacy with Him, thus making me more effective in all things. All fruitfulness can only come from intimacy. With tongues, You see no need for it, thats ok. Me personally I need it, and I love the things of God. Its not that I don't understand tongues. What I don't understand why you are convinced that you can't effectively worship the Glorious King, and get into a state of worship being filled with the Spirit without speaking in tongues. Why must you speak in tongues to deepen your intimacy, and become more effective in all things? I can accept that you think you need this thing, and thats okay...but why do you need it to be close to God and all that other stuff? It's this kind of emotionalist euphoric talk that makes me think it is not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted October 7, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted October 7, 2010 I think you have a bad understanding of tongues. For me, wether it's more primitive or more advanced I don't know I can't interpret, I do know that it's praising our Glorious King, and for me it's not to spread the gospel, but to get into a state of worship and filled with His Spirit. It deepens my intimacy with Him, thus making me more effective in all things. All fruitfulness can only come from intimacy. With tongues, You see no need for it, thats ok. Me personally I need it, and I love the things of God. Its not that I don't understand tongues. What I don't understand why you are convinced that you can't effectively worship the Glorious King, and get into a state of worship being filled with the Spirit without speaking in tongues. Why must you speak in tongues to deepen your intimacy, and become more effective in all things? I can accept that you think you need this thing, and thats okay...but why do you need it to be close to God and all that other stuff? It's this kind of emotionalist euphoric talk that makes me think it is not necessary. I never said that I believe I can't effectively worship the Glorious King, and get into a state of worship being filled with the Spirit without speaking in tongues. I never said You have to have tongues to deepen your intimacy. I said my personal experience with the gift of tongues. Tongues helps me get in His Spirit, but the importance is Jesus. I never said that "tongues" helps you be effective in all things either, I said tongues deepens your intimacy with God, and Having intimacy with God is the only way to be fruitful in Him. To each is given a different gift by whom the Spirit wills. You can have that same intimacy with God without the gift of tongues and I am in no way implying that you need tongues to effectively worship. I am saying that the gift of tongues helps get into deeper worship, and helps keep my focus on the things of God. It is for personal edification. Here is what Paul says about speaking in tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:12 Likewise with you: since you eagerly seek the things of the Spirit, seek especially what will help in edifying the congregation. 13 Therefore someone who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit does pray, but my mind is unproductive. 15 So, what about it? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16 Otherwise, if you are giving thanks with your spirit, how will someone who has not yet received much instruction be able to say, "Amen," when you have finished giving thanks, since he doesn't know what you are saying? 17 For undoubtedly you are giving thanks very nicely, but the other person is not being edified. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you, 19 but in a congregation meeting I would rather say five words with my mind in order to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted October 7, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted October 7, 2010 There are limitations to our mind and prayer. We are not aware of many things, we pray with mixed motives, our flesh is weak, etc. Praying in tongues has a supernatural element and is a perfectly inspired prayer/praise from our spirit to His Spirit. English and our flesh is limited compared to living water that can flow from us. Explain this to me then. So what you are saying is that since I am imperfect, don't have God's all-knowing nature, and I pray with free-will (what you call mixed motives)...the Holy Spirit (God) supernaturally inspires me to pray to Himself..so that He can answer His own prayer. I happen to think that prayer is a little more personal than that. Its actually me, my heart, my mind praying to my Father in Heaven. I don't think there is any benefit for me in becoming some mindless robot for a while so that God can pray to himself in a language and manner that has zero benefit to me. How do you know that the "Living Water" that is flowing from you is a superior language than English? You can't understand it. It could be as primative as 'click' language used by Bushmen in Africa. You don't know. God hasn't had any trouble using the English language to spread His gospel and His will throughout the world for quite some time. Some supernatural language simply isn't necessary for God to communicate with us, or for us to communicate with Him. Paul prayed in the Spirit/spirit AND with his mind in his own language. It is both/and, not either/or. I Cor. 14 says tongues has a self-edification benefit, but that it is also speaking to God, not men. It is a good gift and gives another tool/dimension beyond our good, but limited mind/will. Our primary prayer is from our heart, but that does not mean there is not value to tongues which bypasses our limitations. This is revelation, but your limited reason is stumbling on it due to misunderstanding and possibly the lack of experience (we do not put experience above the Word, but you should not put lack of experience above it either). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted October 7, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2010 I Cor. 14 says tongues has a self-edification benefit, but that it is also speaking to God, not men. It is a good gift and gives another tool/dimension beyond our good, but limited mind/will. so what's the differenece between what youre saying and a good ole fashioned prayer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 7, 2010 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,225 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,484 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 7, 2010 I think the Holy Spirit decides what is necessary. and the need for spiritual gifts is the same need as the need then. All Spiritual gifts are used for edification, and only operate out of love. We all need edified. I do not seek contention here... I merely wish to point out a very important oversight! Each believer did not have a copy of the New Testament the completion of God's Holy Word... if everyone would back up to this truth and re-examine all that is occurring in the infant Church the frailty of Scripture-less foundations as at that time only circulated letters being copied it was a very vulnerable time. Many conclusions have been drawn from interpretations that did not evaluate this most important fact within the contextual basis so important as this... Try it now in your life of witness do not take the Bible with you and go out to testify of God you will in fact experience what they faced however they could not go home and examine the written truth either. I would say The Lord not being a respecter of persons leveled the field with supernatural graces by The Holy Spirit that are no longer required for we have His Word preserved for our use anytime day or night (PRAISE GOD FOR HIS MERCIFUL GIFT!!!)... Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted October 7, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted October 7, 2010 Bickering aside, I have yet to witness a genuine biblical instance of speaking in tongues. The folks I know who claim to have the gift are more often than not motivated by a childish desire for attention, kinda like the little kid who keeps yelling "Lookit me. Lookit me." I've been lookiting for a long time and have yet to see it. The Corinthian problem included pride and immaturity. Paul did not throw the baby out with the bath water, but gave instruction for the proper use of the gifts. A counterfeit or fleshly use does not disprove a balanced, biblical approach. Argue from Scripture, not anecdote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted October 7, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted October 7, 2010 I Cor. 14 says tongues has a self-edification benefit, but that it is also speaking to God, not men. It is a good gift and gives another tool/dimension beyond our good, but limited mind/will. so what's the differenece between what youre saying and a good ole fashioned prayer? I pray and intercede in English based on my sphere of knowledge. I may fail to concentrate and am unaware of many needs around the world. This is my primary prayer responsibility. In addition, the Spirit can prompt me to pray for a missionary or situation I know nothing about across the world with a supernatural prayer language. God has chosen to use prayer, so He can inspire this dimension. In addition, my spirit is refreshed as I get out of the flesh. Both/and vs either/or...both are good and important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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