johndavid316 Posted October 8, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 8, 2010 (edited) Anyone have any thoughts? Here is what I read somewhere and I agree with it. "For example, if I predicted that a coin would land on heads, and it does, that doesnt mean that I am omniscient or that i effected the outcome of the coin toss. However if i am omniscient, and i know the coin will land on heads, then no matter what, the coin will land on heads. There is no other option, and this is why free will cannot exist with omniscience. If i claim to be omniscient and i say that it will land on heads, and it lands on tails, i was wrong and i am not omniscient." Edited October 9, 2010 by johndavid316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 Anyone have any thoughts? Here is what I read somewhere and I agree with it. "For example, if I predicted that a coin would land on heads, and it does, that doesnt mean that I am omniscient or that i effected the outcome of the coin toss. However if i am omniscient, and i know the coin will land on heads, then no matter what, the coin will land on heads. There is no other option, and this is why free will cannot exist with omniscience. If i claim to be omniscient and i say that it will land on heads, and it lands on tails, i was wrong and i am not omniscient." I'm not sure where you're going with this; only God is omniscient. We can never be. We do, however, have free will. Are you saying that God can't have both? Because there IS no one else to whom these two things would apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 It just seems illogical for God to be omniscient and for man to have free will. Maybe we just have an illusion of free will, that would be fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 (edited) Something else that I found was this "I have option A and option B.God knows what i am going to choose. He knows that i am going to choose A.Can i choose B?If the answer is no, then i have no free will. I am given the Illusion of a choice. If the answer is yes, then god was wrong and he is not omniscient." Before anyone goes off on me about what the Bible says let me say this. I know what the Bible says, and I am a Christian. This is just a logical contradiction that interests me and I want to talk about it. Edited October 9, 2010 by johndavid316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 How is this illogical to you? Having free will to choose does not negate the fact that God already knows what we are going to choose. It almost sounds like you believe we are like little computer programs running with no choice at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,398 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,569 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 9, 2010 It just seems illogical for God to be omniscient and for man to have free will. Maybe we just have an illusion of free will, that would be fine with me. Man may turn his thought to God but as soon as He does he has conceptualized and God has become less than Who God actually is... However man may turn his thought toward Christ and what He has taught us of His Father and we will not diminish Who or What The Father is... in all ways we are in need of Christ to bring us into the eternal truths for He is the fulfillment of the Revelation of God and the eternities. As we are purified by The Word we become more able to receive that which is not of here but is from above so that we are able to show forth love to that which is destroying us and that the destruction is not of any concern for it is not a harm but gain... Eph 1:10-12 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. NKJV the understanding you seek can only be accomplished in the Person of Christ for the purpose of laying aside His all knowing to act upon choice as a man tempted as we "yet without sin" This is my Lord ... this is my Savior.... this is the finished Revelation of God The Father... "This all my hope and prayer nothing but the blood of Jesus" a beautiful song of one who found their way... Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 It just seems illogical for God to be omniscient and for man to have free will. Maybe we just have an illusion of free will, that would be fine with me. Man may turn his thought to God but as soon as He does he has conceptualized and God has become less than Who God actually is... However man may turn his thought toward Christ and what He has taught us of His Father and we will not diminish Who or What The Father is... in all ways we are in need of Christ to bring us into the eternal truths for He is the fulfillment of the Revelation of God and the eternities. As we are purified by The Word we become more able to receive that which is not of here but is from above so that we are able to show forth love to that which is destroying us and that the destruction is not of any concern for it is not a harm but gain... Eph 1:10-12 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 (edited) Ok since no one wants to debate, I'm going use a hypothetical. The Topic- Can omniscience and free will coexist? Lets all step outside of the Bible for just a minute here. Let's say there is a hypothetical universe created by a hypothetical god (not the God of the Bible.) In his holy book it says that he is omniscient, however it doesn't say anything about the people of this universe having free will. Well, there is a person in this universe called Joey. We are going to find out if Joey has free will. Joey's god gives him two options, option A and option B. Joey's god knows exactly which option he will choose, as he is omniscient, and Joey's god can never be wrong. Joey's god knows Joey is going to pick option A. When Joey is presented with option A and option B, Joey chooses option A. Does Joey Have free will? In order to have free will he must have been able to choose option B, however this is how the story goes if Joey chooses option B. Joey's god gives him two options, option A and option B. Joey's god knows exactly which option he will choose, as he is omniscient, and Joey's god can never be wrong. Joey's god knows Joey is going to pick option A. When Joey is presented with option A and option B, Joey chooses option B! Joey's God was wrong, and by definition is not omniscient. Joey has free will but his god is not omniscient. Joey cannot choose option B if his god is omniscient. Therefore when presented with the options of A and B, and the presence of an omniscient god that knows he is going to choose option A, Joey must choose the choice that his god already knows he will choose. Because of this, he does not actually have a choice, rather an illusion of choice, and therefore does not have free will, rather, an illusion of free will. Edited October 9, 2010 by johndavid316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 Your theory is wrong. God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there. A person does have a choice. Using your analogy, Joey was given a choice, which you call an option. Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice. The choice is the free will, not the outcome. Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding. God knew what the choice would be. Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice. Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 9, 2010 JohnDavid - Newtonian physics works great for understanding what we see here on Earth and surrounding area. But when we go to the macroscale of the universe, Newtonian physics crumbles. Currently, as far as I know, we rely on Einstein's theories to make sense of what we see of the universe at large. And when we go to the micro-microscale of quantum physics, nothing makes sense! Scientists are still putting the pieces together on that one, like string theory and the like. In the same vein, you are trying to apply the logic of our field of vision into a realm that operates under a completely different set of principles. Trying to say omniscience and free will cannot coexist based on the logic of what you can touch, see, and feel, is like a scientist trying to trying to define a black hole with Newtonian physics. It just doesn't work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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