Guest Jean-Claude Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Munari As I said in my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted June 20, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2002 I do not have a lot of time at the moment, so I will only address Romans 11 and possibly the others later. I want to add a few more verses for a fuller context of that verse: Romans 11:16 If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you. 19 Indeed you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree. 25 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, 26 and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; 27 and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. 30 Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy. 32 For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. In verses 16 - 24, it seems as if Paul is saying the gifts ARE revocable because he is speaking of people being removed, grafted in, torn off again, and original branches being reattached. This of course is speaking of the Jews and Gentiles being grafted to the tree of eternal life, whom is Christ. It tells us that we, who are mostly Gentiles on this board, must be cautious because if God will not spare his chosen race, the Jews, we too will not be spared if we wander off the path. And remember, this letter was written to those who had ALREADY accepted Christ, not to non-Christians. So, the implication is that Paul is saying that we CAN lose our salvation. In 25 - 28, Paul is saying how great God is because he is using something "evil", the rejection of Christ by the Jews, in order to bring about a greater good, the salvation of the rest of the Gentile world. In verse 29, Paul then says the gifts are unrevocable. But wait, what was all that talk about breaking branches and regrafting?!?!?!? I say the solution is simple. The branches on the tree were removed by God not because he decided to tear them off, but because they were dead. God does not throw those broken branches away, but keeps them in case they return to life. In other words, the branches that were a part of Christ can die and then come back to him. The meaning is this, God's gift are never taken away, they are irrevocable. However, we can reject those gifts, we can not use them, we can refuse them. You can compare God's gift to that sweater your aunt gave you for your birthday. You can't give it back, but you can decide whether or not you want to wear it. And like some sweaters, some people view them as beautiful, other's view them as ugly. Christians view God's gifts as beautiful and use it, but we can become soured on that gift and later stop using it. God's mercy is the fact that he allows us to wobble in our faith and that if we ever completely leave, he will accept us back with open arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsower Posted June 20, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Romans 11:20 ..because of unbelief they were broken off... John 3:18 Â He who believes in Him is NOT condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted June 20, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2002 Word, Read all of the verses, not just verse 20. This was written TO believers. The UNBELIEVERS being spoken of are the Jews. Paul says that the Jews were broken off. He then says in verse 21 "For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either." He is saying that if those unbelievers who were natural to the "tree" were cut off, how can those who were grafted on "the Gentiles" will be cut off. You see, being a natural branch (a Jew) or a grafted branch (a Gentile) leads to salvation. At first, the Jews were saved, but were broken off. Paul then says that the Gentiles are grafted on when the believe, but can be broken off when they fall into unbelief, or, turn from God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsower Posted June 20, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Munari, I did read the whole thing. Â The jews were chosen not saved. Â They will be saved, however, when God takes away their sin (verse 27) The chapter explains that God hardened their hearts for the Gentiles sake, so that we could be saved too. Â God has not spared them from His severity, (see verse 22) they have had much trouble and continue to endure great troubles because of their unbelief, the holocaust is an example of this. Â However, He has not condemned them to hell!! See verse 1-"I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!" verse 22- therefore consider the goodness and severity of God, on those who fell (Jews) severity, but toward you (Gentiles) goodness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elect Posted June 20, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 41 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/24/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 20, 2002 Jean-Claude said, "As I said in my post. Â The scriptures that you refer to need to be placed in their proper context. They certainly can be given a different kind of interpretation than what you give them. But how can you give a different kind of interpretation to "The gifts and callings of God are irrevocable" Rom 11:29, in any other way than what it says? Â How can you give a different kind of interpretation to "I know that whatever God does, He does forever. Â Nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken away from it. Â He does this so that man should fear before Him." Â Ecc 3:14 in any other way than what it says? Yet a different interpretation to theses two verses (among others) must be required if indeed the conclusions you come to as to the meaning of the scriptures you quoted in your post are correct; because if the gift of salvation, the gift of righteousness and the other gifts can be revoked, (which would be the case if one can loose their salvation) then Rom 11:29 and Ecc 3:14 must mean something else than what they say!" This is a good post and an excellent point. Munari said, "In verses 16 - 24, it seems as if Paul is saying the gifts ARE revocable " The Spirit, by Paul, is saying no such thing, as can be seen from verse one of the chapter- "...Hath God cast away His people? God forbid..." Munari's interpretation is wrong. "This of course is speaking of the Jews and Gentiles being grafted to the tree of eternal life, whom is Christ." The apostle is speaking 'as a man'(Rom.3.5), from a human view-point about what had happened in Acts 28.24-28. The Jews having rejected the Gospel, the apostle turns from them to the Gentiles. By giving the gospel to one group, and not giving it to another group, a door of salvation was being opened to the Gentile world. But no saved person lost his salvation at that time, nor ever. The Lord will not cast away His elect ones(Jew or Gentile)- "God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew..." Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Rom.11.2 Munari continues, "It tells us that we, who are mostly Gentiles on this board, must be cautious because if God will not spare his chosen race, the Jews, we too will not be spared if we wander off the path." The warning is to be used as a help to keep us watchful. It is not a promise, nor even an implied possibility, of anyone truly saved losing his salvation. Many think themselves in a saved state while attending 'a church' once a week. These are the ones who will , at the last, find themselves not grafted in. But there is no teaching of losing salvation here. "So, the implication is that Paul is saying that we CAN lose our salvation." Nonsense. This is what Jean-Claude must be referring to when he posted about "implications" being insufficient evidence, while clear statements are more certain. And I would certainly agree with him. Munari said, "God does not throw those broken branches away, but keeps them in case they return to life. In other words, the branches that were a part of Christ can die and then come back to him. The meaning is this, God's gift are never taken away, they are irrevocable. However, we can reject those gifts, we can not use them, we can refuse them. " This is pure guess-work. God's will is not subject to our will. "You can compare God's gift to that sweater your aunt gave you for your birthday. You can't give it back, but you can decide whether or not you want to wear it. And like some sweaters, some people view them as beautiful, other's view them as ugly. Christians view God's gifts as beautiful and use it, but we can become soured on that gift and later stop using it. " A poor comparison. Your aunt is not the sovereign ruler of Heaven and Earth. Munari said, "God's mercy is the fact that he allows us to wobble " Its not mercy, and its not a fact. But you are doing enough wobbling to do cartwheels. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted June 21, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2002 Word, Finish the rest of verse 22: 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. That's a BIG if thrown on the end of that verse. elect, your comments do not deserve a comment in return. I hope you keep in mind the fact that you should not judge your fellow Christians as you are obviously doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsower Posted June 21, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Yeah, otherwise you will be dealt with severly too, punished, but not lost---like Israel. Â His "severity" hasn't severed them eternally, they can't be snatched from Him because they are His. Â You and I are His and have the same promise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWJ Posted June 21, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 455 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/28/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2002 The new creature WILL bear fruit. "provided you remain in His kindness" OR....you could say: "provided you BEAR FRUIT"...thereby, having evidence of re-birth.... "remaining in His kindness" Â is bearing the fruit....READ: Phil2:13...Jude24.....this is how we remain. People who hold to loosing salvation ALWAYS ignore or misunderstand the miracle of being re-born of God.! Â Use the plain scripture to interpret the "not so plain". And as I have shown with MANY scriptures...God is specific in telling us of our ETERNAL SECURITY! Peace to all...Carl, OSAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsower Posted June 21, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Munari, What do you believe a person would have to do to lose their salvation? :???: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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