Canon

[Guest racer]

Chazn,

Some maintained that extreme caution must be exercised when using the Septuagint as a text-witness for an ancient Hebrew text-type fundamentally different from the Masoretic version; one must take into account the changes that were made in the course of translation for linguistic, exegetical, and interpretative reasons.

To be fair, when reading up on this topic, I found arguments for and against, both warning to be wary of the other.  My suggestion is you do some searching on your own (If you're not already).  I just posted the articles which seemed to be the most credible as well as believable.  However, I'm sure there are those who would claim my judgement is biased.  So, you'll have to decide for yourself. :inlove:

One thing we do know which is verified in the NT (the exact verse escapes me at the moment) is that the Oracles of God (OT text) was entrusted to the Hebrews.  So, to me that speaks volumes!  

[Chazn]

Xan,

Racer, purgatory is supported in the NT when Yeshua speaks of Abraham's Bosom, but when the curtain was rent in the Holy of Holies on earth in the temple, it was also rent in heaven, nulifying Abraham's Bosom, and now Christians can go boldly before G-d, even in death.

I'd like to do some reading on this, could you tell me which book and chapter I can find it in?

[Guest racer]

Chazn,

Purgatory is not a topic I'm well versed in.  But, I think it would be something that would be mentioned.  But, that's MHO.  

Anyhow, I have done quite a bit of reading of the early church fathers (of whom the RCs like to claim for themselves).  One particular father, Iraneaus, in writing against heresies, tells us that if Scripture does not address it, then it's not for us to concern ourselves with.  It's to be left with God.  So, it depends on whether or not you place any faith in the early fathers.  The more I read of them, I find myself placing more faith in them.  They adhered to beliefs that were in agreement with RCism and they adhered and taught beliefs in disagreement with RCism, but they were definitely very wise men. :inlove:

[Chazn]

Racer:

I would tend to agree to give close heed to Irenaus.  Perhaps I need to back -track on some previous posts but In light of what you just said, what books were in HIS canon (scripture) when he

admonished us to leave the issues not addressed by scripture to God.  Hence, was purgatory and praying for the dead included in the books that HE regarded as scripture.

As an aside I find your quote of Irenaeus very helpful in dealing with other doctrines presented by various cults who dogmatically address issues that scripture seems to leave somewhat open ended.  (But that discussion is fodder for another thread which has already been a toppic of discussion elsewhere).

[Lanakila]

Absent from the body, present with the Lord teaches against purgatory. Without shedding of blood there is no remission is another (Heb). In other words, Christ blood paid for sins, not us burning (purging) in purgatory. There are more and I may post them later.

[munari]

Purgatory is NOT for the remission of sins... it is a purification of our soul from the EFFECTS of our sins. When we commit a sin, it scars us. Purgatory removes those scars and perfects us so we can enter heaven perfected.

[Lanakila]

Munari, I noticed an absence of scriptural support for what you just explained about purgatory. Can you please give that?

[Chazn]

munari,

Your definition of the function of purgatory seems to be somewhat characteristically speculative.  Furthermore, I don't see how the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus, in any way, fits your definition.

Nevertheless, I still ask... Is there evidence for this doctrine in the NT or anything that utterly refutes it?

It seems that, unless otherwise indicated, the NT holds that what happens in one's life while one is alive is what impacts whether a person winds up in heaven or the lake of fire.  Hence, pergatory is, at best, conjectural and irrelevent.

Again, I ask the question, does "appocrapha" unequivicolly agree with Protestant Canon on this issue?

[munari]

Lana,

nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27)

"I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59)

Sometimes Protestants object that Jesus told the thief on the cross that, on the very day the two of them died, they would be together in paradise (Luke 23:43), which they read as a denial of purgatory. However, the argument backfires and actually supports purgatory by proving the existence of a state other than heaven and hell, since Jesus did not go to heaven on the day he died. Peter tells us that he "went and preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19), and, after his resurrection, Christ himself declared: "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17). Thus at that time paradise was located in some third state besides heaven and besides hell.

from: http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

"will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32)

"He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15)

18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.

19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,

20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

"In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43

[Guest Xan]

Sorry, in retrospect, I realize I didn't explain myself properly.  I think the Catholics got its doctrine on purgatory partly from Abraham's Bosom which is where the "believers" prior to the resurrection went.  But as I said, it is no longer, the curtain has been torn so there is no more seperation between G-d and His believers.  Lana posted to be absent from the body is to be present with the L-rd.  G-d's Word says it, and I believe it.  Read my signature.  It applies very well in this conversation.