Virgin Mary--Whose Mother is She?

[Guest Warrior FC]

WFC,

racer, just curious then.. why do you keep dragging this on and on?

Because when people ask me what I think or a question, I like to the polite thing and answer.

So, again, I'm curious, why do you care?

[joed86]

joe,

Tell me when you are talking specifically about Jesus, do you call Him Jesus?

[Guest racer]

Warrior FC,

I'm in no way distressed..

Good, I really don't like to upset people.

[Guest GloryaRose]

If one believes in the Trinity...that is the triune nature of God...then the Holy Spirit the Father and the Son are all one..yet three.

God the Son was not created on the day that Mary concieved.

God the Son existed eternally coequal with God, as God.

One must have a understanding of the Trinity to understand this concept.

When Mary concieved Jesus...God the eternal immortal Son put on the mortal Flesh of humanity, and came here amoung us in its lowliest and humblest form...that of an infant babe... who was given the name Jesus.

Jesus was then unique...fully God....and fully human.

Mary is the human vessel...the virgin mother of Jesus.

Since Jesus IS God the Son, Mary is also referred to as

"The Mother of God ".... but this applies only to her role as the human virgin who bore Jesus...God, the Son made flesh.

Mary herself is not co eternal or co equal with diety.

The Godhead of scripture is a trinity, that means a unity of three...not of four.

Love In Christ

GloryaRose

[Guest racer]

Well, Gloryarose,

Applying that logic, Mary is also the mother of the Holy Spirit.  If the three are One, then you can't leave out the Holy Spirity. ???

[munari]

No racer, you are taking it too far in your thinking...

You have three persons in the Trinity: Father (F), Son (S), and Holy Spirit (HS).

F S HS are all one in that they are God (G). So, F + S + HS = G. However, F = S = HS in that they each Person of the Trinity is God. So, F = G, S = G, and HS = G while F + S + HS = G and not 3 G for God cannot be greater, they are all equal, but the sum of them "added" together still equals only (quite and understatement...) God.

Ok, what does this all mean... It means that you are looking at the title of Mother of God to equal F + S + HS (or more simply, G). However, that is not what that title implies. It implies that Mary is the Mother of God where G = S only. You are adding a step and saying "Yeah, but S = G = HS, so you are saying she is the mother of all three". But, even though F = S = HS, they are still individual persons and can be "divided" (a gross human simplication) from one another without necessarily containing one another.

So, overall, here is my conclusion...

Thinking about the Trinity and how the three persons relate with one another gives me a headache!!!     These three persons are each separate and distinct, but they are all one and equal to one another. That also means, since Christ said he and the Father are one and if you see Him (Christ), you see the Father. Its a paradox to the human mind. Given the paradox, I think it would be best to kind of let this debate go to the wayside and please accept (racer) that the Catholic Church is not saying that Mary is eternal or that she created the Father and the Holy Spirit (or the Son for that matter). Mother of God means that she gave birth to Jesus, who is God incarnate. She did not give birth to the Son or the Holy Spirit. Trying to get more technical than that is dabbling with their natures and how they interact more than I think any human can comprehend...

[Guest racer]

munari,

Yes, trying to understand the complexity of the Trinity is fodder for headaches! :butbut: However, surely you understand that I never believed that RCs believed Mary was eternal or the creator of the eternal God. :???:

I do however, believe that the RCs like to bestow the title of Mother of God on her in order to exalt her above the rest of humanity, which is clearly against Scripture.

[munari]

Honestly racer, it tells me that he felt that he didn't have to point out the obvious... or rather, the evangelists who wrote the Gospels didn't feel they had to report Jesus stating the obvious. When they did show Jesus talking about Mary, he was not rejecting her as a mother, but was making a point about how our relationship with God must be. If we believe in Him, we are all his family. That's the point he was trying to make. If we believe in Him, we are family, we are adopted. In those cases where Jesus seems to downplay Mary as his mother, he does so because it was necessary. If Jesus would have said to the woman, "You're right, she is blessed" (something we already know from scripture), he would not have expressed the fact that any who believe in him are also blessed.

However, surely you understand that I never believed that RCs believed Mary was eternal or the creator of the eternal God.

I wasn't sure on that... you kept saying that if we called her "Mother of God", that was saying that it meant that she gave birth to the Father and Holy Spirit as well...

[Guest astralis]

How many RCs can say, they came to a discernment in concurrence with the RCC before they were taught of what the RCC believed?  If there are any out there, I would love to hear from them, but I want examples.

Me.  I was Protestant and started studying Protestant doctrine and discovered the holes and found out that Catholicism filled those holes, thus, I became Catholic.

[Guest Xan]

Me.