Virgin Mary--Whose Mother is She?

[Guest racer]

astralis,

I found yet another one of my posts you must have missed.  Hmmm???  Now, who doesn't read whose posts?  

Here it goes:

My question was, did you read Scripture, without knowing what RCsim practiced, come to a particular discernment, and then find while studying RCism that you had made that exact discernment before you knew anything about the teachings of the RCC?  Examples:  Did you determine Mary was Immaculately Conceived before studying RCism?  Did you discern that Peter was the first Pope and any declarations he made concerning faith and morals were infallible before you studied RCism?

Want to give it a go, and attempt to answer those questions?

[Guest astralis]

I will but in short, let me quote one of your previous quotes:

No, but He made it clear that He was the God, composed of triune natures/persons.  

I must disagree with you.  I don't think the Bible is clear on the Trinity - it does not jump out at you.  Sure, I see it now and it makes perfect sense (about as clear as mud) but it is a mystery and I do not believe you would believe it either had you not been taught it, handed down orally to you from your teachers or Pastor.  Catholics call this Tradition.

[Guest racer]

astralis,

I must disagree with you.

Now, why doesn't that surprise me?

I don't think the Bible is clear on the Trinity - it does not jump out at you.

Never said it did.  But, all the evidence is there in clear explicit statements.  Jesus said, My Father and I are one, and I have previously quoted other versus that are familiar.  That any person having studied the Bible earnestly could have came up with the correct theology.  Would everybody have?  No.  I've never said we didn't need teachers, theologians, biblical scholars, to clarify things for us.  But, we are also instructed by Scripture not to trust all doctrines or traditions taught of men.  There is not biblical statement which clearly says that Peter is one with the Rock, or that Peter will be the leader of Jesus' church on the earth.  In fact, we have scripture telling us explicitly that "no apostle is above the other."  Christ gives us no indication that any person or group of persons will be infallible.  That is a tradition invented by the RCC.

Sure, I see it now and it makes perfect sense (about as clear as mud) but it is a mystery and I do not believe you would believe it either had you not been taught it, handed down orally to you from your teachers or Pastor.

You can't say that for sure.  Do you really believe that if you had spent a significant amount of time prayerfully reading Scripture, that you would not have eventually discerned the composition of God?  No, we may not have coined the term Trinity.  But, we can discern from Scripture the natures/persons that comprise Him.

Catholics call this Tradition.

RCs call anything that can not be explicitly confirmed in the Word of God, not Tradition, but Apostolic Tradition.  The irony of that claim is this, in all the texts published, created, processed, distributed, taught from (as if they were the Gospel of God), is that I have yet to find a RC who can tell exactly what all these Apostolic Traditions are.  

:inlove:

[munari]

I think that something needs to be pointed out here... something that is not fair racer...

You were holding Catholics to the "do you think you would have known that from scripture if the Catholic Church didn't tell you" standard. However, you just admitted in your last post that one of (if not) the most important doctrines of Christianity would not be explicitly drawn from scripture by everyone! That's not fair.

[Guest astralis]

I have yet to find a RC who can tell exactly what all these Apostolic Traditions are.  

The Word of God.

[Guest racer]

munari,

You were holding Catholics to the "do you think you would have known that from scripture if the Catholic Church didn't tell you" standard. However, you just admitted in your last post that one of (if not) the most important doctrines of Christianity would not be explicitly drawn from scripture by everyone! That's not fair.

The difference is I am not asking you to speak for all of Roman Catholics, therefore, I don't attempt to speak on behalf of all non-RCs.  I can tell you that Jesus, His apostles, nor NT writers said "Trinity" but Scripture clearly describes the Trinity.  You may disagree that's you option.  So, I am asking you, do you honestly think that Scripture clearly defines Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, the Papacy, or Infallibility?  Could you have discerned those doctrines without the RCC telling you they existed?  

[Guest racer]

astralis,

The Word of God.

So, you disagree with the Roman Catholic claim that authority does not rest with the Bible alone, but is instead comprised of the Word of God (Bible), the Church, and Apostolic Tradition? ???

[munari]

I honestly don't know if I could of or could not of. I don't know if I would even be Christian if I was not raised Catholic. Its a hypothetical that no one can truthfully and accurately answer. I can ask you the same thing. If you were not influenced by Protestant ideas, do you think you could have discerned those things being there.

I WILL say however that I honestly and 100% agree that those doctrines are implicitly based in scripture and on the nature of Christ. Each of those doctrines were developed and promulgated in order to protect a belief in Christ.

[Guest racer]

munari,

I can ask you the same thing. If you were not influenced by Protestant ideas, do you think you could have discerned those things being there.

I already told you I'm not Protestant.  How do you presume to know that I was influenced by Protestant ideas.  I was raised unchurched.  What I have learned I have learned from the Bible.  I have came to many discernments, only to later discover, that not only some evangelical scholars, but even early church father's held the same belief or discernment.  I can honestly say that!  So, yes, there are many things I have discerned without Protestant influence.

I WILL say however that I honestly and 100% agree that those doctrines are implicitly based in scripture and on the nature of Christ.

But, why?  What has the Word said to you to convict you of this?  Jesus was very clear and explicit on the things He wanted to ensure that we knew.  Even to the point of stating that the woman who anointed him with oil, to which the apostles objected, would be remembered throughout all time!  So, why would He state anything that was pertinent to our faith and grace on or in implicit terms?--He wouldn't.

Each of those doctrines were developed and promulgated in order to protect a belief in Christ.

Where did you get this idea/belief/information?  :???:

[Guest GloryaRose]

The holy Ghost never became flesh...eternally existed with God... as one with God....but he never was incarnated in human form........................therefore he has no mother.

Yes racer, that was what I said...BUT you said

So, then the Holy Ghost is not a member of the Trinity?