Tithe???

[enoob57]

Here's another thing;

Next time you need a $20.00 from the local ATM and they charge you two or three dollars to use their machine and your bank charges you another buck fifty, think about the Tithe.

What do you mean?

If I may Dave... He means that it is given for God's people to give... if they do not God will cause things around them to consume their monies and things-

Deut 28:38-42

38 "You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land.

NKJV

When the church was first seen starting to form people sold all their possessions and put into one pot so that all might have enough. The story of Ananias and Sapphira.

Here is the New Testament tithe-

Luke 18:22

22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

NKJV

It is not the give to get... it is the privilege to engage the imitation of God's actions from within ourselves as offerings of worship to Him who has given us all things!

Love Steven

[Matthitjah]

And yet, here is the vow of Jacob;

Ge 28:22

And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that you shall give me I will surely give the tenth unto you.

It wasn't about his produce it was about all that God had and would be giving him and it wasn't about what percent or even currying favor. It was about sincere worship from his heart. He already had been found in the blessing and the favor. His was an act of profound worship and thankfulness, as he was struck by the numinous awe.

(Candice, that's a "$5.00 word locker" usage. )

peace,

Dave

Hi Dave....could you please demonstrate tithing in action in the Body of Messiah....or quote some of Paul's teaching on its relevance for Believers today....or just anything that is in context, as I struggle with what is often taught, and am mostly in agreement with the new kid on the block....welcome to Worthy by the way LW.

Hi brother,

I believe the New Testament Tithe is everything. It's all of you in an act of devotion. Everything you do, everything you are, everything you own, everywhere you're at in that moment.

Please note that I highlighted Jacob's Vow. Jacob made a vow in an act of worship. He was struck by the numinous awe. He thought how awesome is this and he dedicated a tenth of everything that came into his life to the Lord, it wasn't just produce.

God get's the very best of the firstfruits. We need only look to the sad story of Cain and Able to see the mistake in that.

I am not trying to lay a heavy yoke on any man either. Each should do as he is convicted and as he has revelation.

The Lord has said this;

Mal 1:8

And if you offer the blind for a sacrifice, is it not evil? and if you offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto your governor; will he be pleased with you, or accept your person? says the LORD of hosts.

The Lord has also said this;

Lu 11:42

But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I vehemently disagree with our new brother here. He is trying to lay the conviction of his own heart upon others.

Yet;

Eph 4:7

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

and;

Ro 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Giving is a Grace.

peace,

Dave

[LuftWaffle]

I vehemently disagree with our new brother here. He is trying to lay the conviction of his own heart upon others.

Indeed, I am convinced in my heart, but having a conviction in itself isn't wrong, is it? Do you not have convictions in your own heart too?

Convictions are only wrong if they contradict scripture, so lets look at what the Bible says regarding tithing and whether what is taught nowadays is inline with scripture and most importantly, lets stop changing the definition of tithing to mean things it does not.

I agree that our lives should be a living sacrifice devoted to God, but that's not a tithe and nowhere in scripture is it defined as a tithe.

Likewise charitable giving isn't a tithe nor is it defined as such in scripture.

Ananias and Saffira weren't killed for not tithing, tithing has nothing do to with what happened to them, their offense was lying to the Holy Spirit. In fact Peter says that their possessions were theirs to keep, so non-payment isn't the issue.

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

None of the above attempts to substantiate modern tithing actually references modern tithing.

I fully agree that all things we own belong to God, but you haven't answered my question. Who authorised churches to be the custodians of what Christians give back to God? Who declared that churches should get the first 10% of gentile Christians monthly salaries? This is what is being taught, is it unreasonable to ask where the scriptural authority for this teaching comes from? Does that make me wordly, stingy, greedy, disobedient or unfaithful? Does that mean I have some dark agenda that I want to force onto others?

Edited January 13, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[LuftWaffle]

Here's another thing;

Next time you need a $20.00 from the local ATM and they charge you two or three dollars to use their machine and your bank charges you another buck fifty, think about the Tithe.

What do you mean?

If I may Dave... He means that it is given for God's people to give... if they do not God will cause things around them to consume their monies and things-

Deut 28:38-42

38 "You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land.

NKJV

When the church was first seen starting to form people sold all their possessions and put into one pot so that all might have enough. The story of Ananias and Sapphira.

Here is the New Testament tithe-

Luke 18:22

22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

NKJV

It is not the give to get... it is the privilege to engage the imitation of God's actions from within ourselves as offerings of worship to Him who has given us all things!

Love Steven

The reason I asked what was meant by the ATM machine analogy is because the definitions of tithing change constantly.

I pay a mandatory fee to the bank for services rendered. I don't give that service fee as an act of awe and devotion. It's not a gift at all but a payment. I pay service charges, I don't *give* or *offer* service charges.

But then in another post tithing is defined as an act of devotion where we should be giving our all not just money not just time 100%. But that totally contradicts the ATM analogy.

Then in another sense tithing is equated to giving whatever you can, joyfully to charity.

To be absolutely frank, I believe this vague and shifting definition of tithing is necessary to increase amount of availble prooftexts for modern tithing.

In one sense tithing is presented as law where people are under a curse when they don't obey. But when valid questions are raised regarding the Law, then tithing suddenly becomes a free act of devotion or 'giving' and then all New Testament verses about charity can be evoked in order to prove tithing teaching.

This very fact, I believe further illustrates that modern tithing really isn't a biblical concept at all.

Edited January 13, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[enoob57]

If it's okay with everyone I'd like to throw in my thoughts on the issue.

I see tithing as a two-fold purpose: to support the Church/church and the poor. That being said, I think the 10% tithe is little more than a historical number and shouldn't be used as authoritative. Whatever we give we should be done joyfully for the glory of God and helping those less fortunate than ourselves. If giving 10% or more to the church makes you happy and glorifies God, more power to you, many people are not willing to give that much. If you have financial trouble and find it hard to dish out 10%, you probably should not give that much. Perhaps 5% would be more realistic, or even less.

Also, things come up that we cannot control, like sickness or injury etc, and requires large sums of money. For those periods of time it would most likely be best to stop tithing. Once the financial crisis is over you can resume regular giving; you would probably be better off financially and be able to give more in the long run if you cut down giving during tough times.

In a broader overlook on the issue, those in Christ are part of the body of Christ. And each part of a body does and specialize in something different. So too, are we each unique in what we have to offer. For some, being able to help finance the church is something they can offer up. For others, like me who are dirt poor, we can find other ways to help out. I know at my church we have members that are poor and they help out by keeping the garden and lawn maintained in their spare time. Many offer up other services, like picking up and delivering furniture and food as needed. Helping out with day care for kids, volunteering for teaching Sunday School, singing in the church choir, working on reaching out to the community, helping with youth ministry, help set up church events and so on.

As long as you are giving what you have to offer and do so joyfully for the glory of God, I say don't fret about how much you give. Focus on your gifts and talents, whatever they happen to be, and run with that.

May Christ be your shalom, D-9

Where does this fit in your reasoning? Christ seems to evaluate the sacrificial aspects of giving as to pleasure unto Himself!

Mark 12:43-44

43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."

NKJV

Luke 6:38

Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

NKJV

Love Steven

[enoob57]

Here's another thing;

Next time you need a $20.00 from the local ATM and they charge you two or three dollars to use their machine and your bank charges you another buck fifty, think about the Tithe.

What do you mean?

If I may Dave... He means that it is given for God's people to give... if they do not God will cause things around them to consume their monies and things-

Deut 28:38-42

38 "You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land.

NKJV

When the church was first seen starting to form people sold all their possessions and put into one pot so that all might have enough. The story of Ananias and Sapphira.

Here is the New Testament tithe-

Luke 18:22

22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

NKJV

It is not the give to get... it is the privilege to engage the imitation of God's actions from within ourselves as offerings of worship to Him who has given us all things!

Love Steven

The reason I asked what was meant by the ATM machine analogy is because the definitions of tithing change constantly.

I pay a mandatory fee to the bank for services rendered. I don't give that service fee as an act of awe and devotion. It's not a gift at all but a payment. I pay service charges, I don't *give* or *offer* service charges.

But then in another post tithing is defined as an act of devotion where we should be giving our all not just money not just time 100%. But that totally contradicts the ATM analogy.

Then in another sense tithing is equated to giving whatever you can, joyfully to charity.

To be absolutely frank, I believe this vague and shifting definition of tithing is necessary to increase amount of availble prooftexts for modern tithing.

In one sense tithing is presented as law where people are under a curse when they don't obey. But when valid questions are raised regarding the Law, then tithing suddenly becomes a free act of devotion or 'giving' and then all New Testament verses about charity can be evoked in order to prove tithing teaching.

This very fact, I believe further illustrates that modern tithing really isn't a biblical concept at all.

I stand in complete agreement with Dave in the [all] aspect of giving... It all belongs to God!

John 15:15-17

15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

NKJV

He has simply told us that it is to be all burnt up... All corporeal creation! Knowing this how shall we be.... He asks-

2 Peter 3:10-13

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

NKJV

The complete understanding is to reckon that which is to come as eternal value and that which is here set aside for fire... as we say is not always as we do but if we believe the above and can give that which is worthless toward the things of God - tithe or whatever you wish to call it "giving" ... God will examine our heart as to intent as why it is given and from there the possibility of eternal worth from worthlessness. To me that is the total of the Word Grace.... Love Steven

[Matthitjah]

I vehemently disagree with our new brother here. He is trying to lay the conviction of his own heart upon others.

Indeed, I am convinced in my heart, but having a conviction in itself isn't wrong, is it? Do you not have convictions in your own heart too?

Convictions are only wrong if they contradict scripture, so lets look at what the Bible says regarding tithing and whether what is taught nowadays is inline with scripture and most importantly, lets stop changing the definition of tithing to mean things it does not.

I agree that our lives should be a living sacrifice devoted to God, but that's not a tithe and nowhere in scripture is it defined as a tithe.

Likewise charitable giving isn't a tithe nor is it defined as such in scripture.

Ananias and Saffira weren't killed for not tithing, tithing has nothing do to with what happened to them, their offense was lying to the Holy Spirit. In fact Peter says that their possessions were theirs to keep, so non-payment isn't the issue.

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

None of the above attempts to substantiate modern tithing actually references modern tithing.

I fully agree that all things we own belong to God, but you haven't answered my question. Who authorised churches to be the custodians of what Christians give back to God? Who declared that churches should get the first 10% of gentile Christians monthly salaries? This is what is being taught, is it unreasonable to ask where the scriptural authority for this teaching comes from? Does that make me wordly, stingy, greedy, disobedient or unfaithful? Does that mean I have some dark agenda that I want to force onto others?

Grace to you,

So do you generally advise that the person that Tithes ten percent not do that despite the conviction of their heart because you see no cause for it? Does it bother you that folks do this as a matter of worship? Does it rub you the wrong way that Churches teach this as a way to support the local Church and the Pastor assigned to it?

Do you realize that something like only ten percent of any given local Church actually really tithes, let alone gives anything at all? How should the local Church be supported in your summation?

I want to know how much you believe that I should personally give and how I should give it.

peace,

Dave

[LuftWaffle]

I stand in complete agreement with Dave in the [all] aspect of giving... It all belongs to God!

John 15:15-17

15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

NKJV

He has simply told us that it is to be all burnt up... All corporeal creation! Knowing this how shall we be.... He asks-

2 Peter 3:10-13

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

NKJV

The complete understanding is to reckon that which is to come as eternal value and that which is here set aside for fire... as we say is not always as we do but if we believe the above and can give that which is worthless toward the things of God - tithe or whatever you wish to call it "giving" ... God will examine our heart as to intent as why it is given and from there the possibility of eternal worth from worthlessness. To me that is the total of the Word Grace.... Love Steven

Dear Steven, I'm still new here so it's with respect and humily that I appeal to you to address the topic and abandon the idea that tithing is interchangeable with devotion or giving.

The verses above as well as the idea that Christians should be generous and not materialistic I agree with. That is not the contention here.

I'd be willing to bet that your very church makes a distinction between tithes and offerings, because the common way that it is taught is that tithes (a minimum of 10%) must go to the church, thereafter one can give to the needy. Right there a distinction is made.

Let me also appeal to you to look at the opening post of this thread.

anitarose expressed her shock at the late J.Vernon McGee for teaching that tithing is no longer required.

Now if tithing is interchangeable with giving, then we must assume that J. Vernon McGee is teaching that the church isn't required to give to the needy. Is anitarose expressing her shock that this is the case? Not at all. Giving is not what we're talking about.

Likewise if tithing is interchangeable with the idea that all belongs to God then is J. Vernon McGee really contending that it isn't the case that all things belong to God? Again I doubt that is the case.

Tithing is a rule that is very specific when it is applied, but very vague when it is defended.

What do I mean by that?

When it is taught from the pulpit it is said that a minimum of 10% of one's salary must be paid to the local church, whether your rich or poor, own land or not, jew or gentile and those who don't are implied as being robbers of God or that they lack faith or devotion. These are very specific instructions and accusations, wouldn't you say?

But when the doctrine of modern tithing is defended, suddenly the concept becomes vague. Any generosity or act of devotion now becomes tithing. If any giving is tithing then go and ask your pastor whether you can give your tithes to a missionary? See what the response will be. Tell your pastor that instead of hard cash, you'll give the church 10% of your time, instead. What do you think the general response will be?

Also, you're using verses dealing with materialism and the love of worldly things, which aside from caricaturising my position: implying that *need* to hear Jesus speaking against materialism, don't actually speak to the specific rules of tithing.

I also find it odd that non-tithers are often accused of- or implied to be focused on the material, but the commonly used anecdotal incentive for tithing is something along the lines of, "ever since I started tithing my financial problems went away and God blessed me richly...therefore tithing is good."

I'm not trying to start a fight, please, dear brother, I ask again: Where did God authorise that gentile Christians should be giving a minimum of 10% of their salaries to their local church. Where is this modern practise defined in scripture.

I totally agree that all things belong to God, but where does scripture authorise churches to be the custodians of the first 10% of what Christians give back to God?

In other words, I'm not against giving to God or any other giving, I'm against the church claiming the bulk of that which is given to God. Where does the church get the authority to do this. Please, if you have the answer give it, instead of posting verses on materialism or giving with which nobody here disagrees.

God bless

Edited January 14, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[LuftWaffle]

Grace to you,

So do you generally advise that the person that Tithes ten percent not do that despite the conviction of their heart because you see no cause for it? Does it bother you that folks do this as a matter of worship?

Grace to you too dear brother,

You've made a very creative interpretation of my position regarding this issue in your statement above. You're always welcome to try and paint me with a black brush, I deserve it, but know that what you've said a) doesn't address the issue at all and b) isn't what I believe.

I generally advise that Christians follow the lead of the Holy Spirit and if the Holy spirit says, "The pastor needs your help" then you give all you can, and if the Holy Spirit says, "The poor need your help" then you give to them no matter how much the pastor threatens that you'll be robbing God if you don't give the church her 10%. And if the Holy Spirit says, "Give to such and such missionary" then don't be afraid to give to them, no curse will fall upon you as the pastor says.

Does it rub you the wrong way that Churches teach this as a way to support the local Church and the Pastor assigned to it?

Do you realize that something like only ten percent of any given local Church actually really tithes, let alone gives anything at all? How should the local Church be supported in your summation?

No, supporting a worthy cause doesn't 'rub me the wrong way' dear brother. This line of argument, while it may prove effective in villifying me, doesn't speak to the issues that I've raised. What I'm arguing against is the church teaching something that they cannot biblically defend, for the sake of expedience. Christianity is not an 'ends justify the means' religion. Robbing banks to feed the poor is wrong. Manipulating congregations into paying modern tithing, when God never authorised this is equally wrong. Modernising an old testament law and teaching it as 'God sayeth' is wrong.

Let me ask you something, how did Paul ever start a church? Did he demand tithes? Did he lie awake at night wondering how he's supposed to spread the word of God without startup capital?

Do you not believe that God will provide for the church, without the need to collect a form of church-tax (which is essentially what modern tithing is)?

As I said before, there are many churches that are aware of what the bible teaches regarding tithing and they do not teach tithing and they prosper. There is no evidence whatsoever that the early Christian church collected tithes. In fact, when Paul emplored the Corinthians to assist the poor of another congregation, it was a perfect opportunity to invoke the law of modern tithing, yet he doesn't. He appeals to their love and to grace, but never threatens them with robbing God if they don't pay 10%.

See for yourself:

2Co 8:10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.

2Co 8:11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

2Co 8:13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

2Co 8:14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality

Then we can look at what Jesus taught, what does He say to His disciples? That they should, "Go forth and collect tithes, and with those tithes build buildings, hire a band, get chairs lights and multimedia and preach"?

Or did he say?

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

I want to know how much you believe that I should personally give and how I should give it.

Dear brother, I cannot stress this any more than I already have.

I don't have a problem with giving and a Christian isn't bound by any wooden rule as to how much. Give as you purposeth.

I am speaking of the modern doctrine of tithing and it's validity. I am speaking about what is being taught, yet you insist on caricaturising my position into an argument against giving? Why do you do this?

Where did God authorise gentile churches to claim a minimum of ten percent of congregation member's salaries? Where did God say that those not paying 10% of their salaries to their local church will be guilty of robbing God? Where did God declare that modern tithing is an act of worship? Where did God authorise churches to demand tithes (a law given to Israel for a specific purpose) to cover their running costs?

These are the things that are being taight today. Where is it authorised?

What value is there in avoiding these questions?

Let me ask you this question. You don't have to answer it here, just think about it. Why is it that one of the most prolific doctrines in modern day churches have no real scriptural basis? Afterall if there was a scriptural basis you'd have given it by now, right? Instead tithing teaching must rely on anecdotal evidence, equivocation with charity and caricaturisation of the opposition, threats, emotional appeals, etc..

Is a doctrine that requires that sort of defense worthy of defending?

Think about it dear brother and peace to you too.

Edited January 14, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[Botz]

And yet, here is the vow of Jacob;

Ge 28:22

And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that you shall give me I will surely give the tenth unto you.

It wasn't about his produce it was about all that God had and would be giving him and it wasn't about what percent or even currying favor. It was about sincere worship from his heart. He already had been found in the blessing and the favor. His was an act of profound worship and thankfulness, as he was struck by the numinous awe.

(Candice, that's a "$5.00 word locker" usage. )

peace,

Dave

Hi Dave....could you please demonstrate tithing in action in the Body of Messiah....or quote some of Paul's teaching on its relevance for Believers today....or just anything that is in context, as I struggle with what is often taught, and am mostly in agreement with the new kid on the block....welcome to Worthy by the way LW.

Hi brother,

I believe the New Testament Tithe is everything. It's all of you in an act of devotion. Everything you do, everything you are, everything you own, everywhere you're at in that moment.

Please note that I highlighted Jacob's Vow. Jacob made a vow in an act of worship. He was struck by the numinous awe. He thought how awesome is this and he dedicated a tenth of everything that came into his life to the Lord, it wasn't just produce.

God get's the very best of the firstfruits. We need only look to the sad story of Cain and Able to see the mistake in that.

I am not trying to lay a heavy yoke on any man either. Each should do as he is convicted and as he has revelation.

The Lord has said this;

Mal 1:8

And if you offer the blind for a sacrifice, is it not evil? and if you offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto your governor; will he be pleased with you, or accept your person? says the LORD of hosts.

The Lord has also said this;

Lu 11:42

But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I vehemently disagree with our new brother here. He is trying to lay the conviction of his own heart upon others.

Yet;

Eph 4:7

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

and;

Ro 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Giving is a Grace.

peace,

Dave

I have read everything you posted in reply to my question Dave, and you know I appreciate and value what you say , but in this instance I don't believe you have sufficiently answered the question, or countered what Luftwaffle has said adequately, as he echoes what I have posted on Worthy several times, but had no real come-backs.

If you look at the heart of what he is trying to get across, it is not that he doesn't believe in giving and supporting the local Body, and helping in whatever way possible, financial or other, to give where there is a need....what he is labouring to demonstrate is that using the terminology of tithes and offerings is confusing, and doctrinally throws up more questions than answers, and that many people who try and insist on keeping these terms and a certain format, struggle to adequately support it from Scripture, having to focus on mostly Old Covenant passages taken out of context....but nobody challenges them.

On top of that, I was trying to establish how far one can use the format of 'tithes and offerings' to invest in...which is what is also preached in many congregations...do I give financially to gain financially...in other words giving is like the stock exchange, except you cannot lose if you give with a cheerful heart and in faith....and I have often heard testimonies about G-ds supply, funnily enough, quite often from those I know have a comfortable home, car and decent salary (including wealthy Pastors)...whereas I have known many faithful Believers that are actually in real need...give in faith, beyond what they could, and get into further financial difficulties.

What I am looking for is clarity, and proper examples in operation from Paul or others.....I have seached for years, and argued and read up on it, but have found nothing, except that we should all look to be using our finances to further the KoG, and that would include supporting our brethren in ministry and sowing into various projects, but especiallly reaching out to the poor and evangelism...not under coercion, or compunction, but under conviction and in faith, not looking for a financial return, but treasures laid up in Heaven.

So as far as things stand (and I am a very teachable fellow) I whole-hearted endorse what Luftwaffle has proposed, (and I hope I haven't misrepresented you bro)...as I have found the current strands on tithes and offerings wholly inadequate, and biblically unsound...and in many respects slightly dishonest.

The game is well and truly afoot....over to you.