Matthitjah Posted January 4, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2011 Also, in Daniel, "the clouds" are present in every translation and in most instances, as you stated, there is the distinct impression that the Son of man was led, escorted, presented. So, the question remains, "by whom?" Why does the Lord of Glory need to be escorted or even led by ressurected men? Are those men gods of some sort? Sounds a little like LDS Doctrine Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 4, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Botz, do you know Hebrew enough to see if the "they" belongs there? Hi Neb, yes of course no problem.... Thanks, Botz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 4, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Also, in Daniel, "the clouds" are present in every translation and in most instances, OK, but how do you make the jump that "clouds" are representative of people? as you stated, there is the distinct impression that the Son of man was led, escorted, presented. So, the question remains, "by whom?" OK, but how do you make the jump that it was the "resurrected saints"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller Posted January 4, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 827 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 12,101 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2011 There are many many references in the OT of the Lord being accompanied by a cloud, descending from a cloud, coming from the midst of a cloud, speaking from a cloud, etc. Why would the cloud be different in the New Testament? Isn't the cloud part of the Shekinah glory of the Lord? Ex 16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud. Ex 19:9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdktlk Posted January 4, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 282 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/30/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 There are a couple of recorded conversations with these resurrected one's in Scripture: one is found in Mark 16:5 and the other is Acts 1:10. Also, we have in Daniel 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him," which is a picture of the ascension of the Lord Jesus. I suppose the questions we would pose to the Lord would then be what or who are these "clouds of heaven" and who are "they" that brought Him near before Him? Hi sdktlk, I really can't see any connection at all between Mark 16:5: Acts 1:10 and trying to connect them to those that came out of their graves when the L-rd was crucified....unless you are trying to suggest that some of them wandered over to the Tomb and made themselves useful? Hi Botz The connection is in response to the term "re-animation" giving the impression that those which were resurrected were something less than totally glorified saints. These Scriptures simply fill up the picture of those who got up at the time of the Lord's Resurrection. And the original question was where did they go? Please do examine Acts 1:9, as those that were resurrected can certainly be seen going with the Lord on that day if the verse is interpreted properly. The main reason we need to see them is that the words "cloud" and "clouds" hold a prominent place in Scripture dealing with what we see with respect to the Lord in the New Testament. I know you're conversing with Brother Botz. I want to interject here on your point from Acts 1:9. You'll have to also convey that Luke meant two ressurected men here; Lu 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: Two men is a like literary tool in Luke to convey angel's. The account in Matthew 28 indicates that it was an Angel who rolled back the stone and spoke to Mary. What we have in the differing accounts is merely a re-telling of the story by various individuals but all convey the same message and Matthew 28 corroborates and defines for us the account and the who. I would like to ask where you are going with this? peace, dave Hi Dave, In Matthew 28 there is a distinction between "...the angel of the Lord..," angelos and Mark 16:5 "...a young man..." neaniskos, as that Greek word indeed means "a young man under forty." One must take care with literary license else we miss the import of the Word of the Lord. Luk 24:4, again, they ARE two men. We find in 2Cor 12:7 the apostle Paul speaking of "...the messenger of satan..." and the word "messenger" there is, in the Greek, angelos. By this we see that an angel, a messenger (angelos) can be used of more than a celestial being of light, it can also be used with reference to a demonic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdktlk Posted January 4, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 282 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/30/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Also, in Daniel, "the clouds" are present in every translation and in most instances, OK, but how do you make the jump that "clouds" are representative of people? as you stated, there is the distinct impression that the Son of man was led, escorted, presented. So, the question remains, "by whom?" OK, but how do you make the jump that it was the "resurrected saints"? If we see that is was a "cloud" of resurrected saints which took the Lord Jesus to heaven, which can be understood from other references to this event, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 4, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 4, 2011 The cloud has always represented the shikinah glory of the Lord. I see no reason to assume this to be a different cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdktlk Posted January 4, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 282 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/30/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 There are many many references in the OT of the Lord being accompanied by a cloud, descending from a cloud, coming from the midst of a cloud, speaking from a cloud, etc. Why would the cloud be different in the New Testament? Isn't the cloud part of the Shekinah glory of the Lord? Ex 16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud. Ex 19:9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdktlk Posted January 4, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 282 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/30/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Also, in Daniel, "the clouds" are present in every translation and in most instances, as you stated, there is the distinct impression that the Son of man was led, escorted, presented. So, the question remains, "by whom?" Why does the Lord of Glory need to be escorted or even led by ressurected men? Are those men gods of some sort? Sounds a little like LDS Doctrine Peace, Dave Hello Dave, nope not LDS nor any other name. The only mark I'm desirous of is to have the Name, the Person, the Image of the Lord Jesus Christ written upon my forehead (pointing to our soul) or my hand (speaking of laboring for,) just Jesus that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 4, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 4, 2011 It is indeed representative of the Shekinan glory of the Lord. If we agree that the things in the Old Testament are a shadow of the spiritual realities which were to come then we need to discover upon what "cloud" will this glory rest. Who is being spoken of in Isa 60:1 where it is written, "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee." ?? The cloud resting on upon people does not make the cloud the people. The cloud is the Glory, and it does not have to rest on anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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