Where does the idea of a natural rebuilt Temple come from?

[sdktlk]

I submit that the temple being built is the corporate Son of which Jesus is the head & not a "natural" temple built by man. God is spirit & has no need of a manmade temple.

This creates the question of why did God have a temple in the first place? If you look into what the temple is going to be used for, it makes sense that one is built again.

The answer to that one seems simple enough. "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." (1Cor 15:46) Seems to me that somewhere along the line this verse, along with others have been expanded to say "natural, spiritual, and then natural again." Just saying. Doesn't it seem so to you?

When we look at the verse in it's context, where it speaks of the rapture, then that which is natural (us) becomes spiritual (our glorified body), it does make sense, but this is not speaking of the temple where men go to worship. It seems to of been lost somewhere in the mix of defining the difference between the believers and the unbelievers temples, but the temple that is to be build will be for the Jewish believers that have not accepted Jesus as their Savior, not for those who do believe where their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. These two are not the same.

ok...where exactly is the scripture you are referencing? I may learn something new today.

The reference to our new glorified bodies is found in chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians. We can also see that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 6:19. The temple, the physical one, is read in Matthew 24, which refers back to Daniel 11 & 12.

Thanks. Will look into the physical temple.

Here's ole stupid me again, but I just can't seem to find a natural rebuilt temple in Matthew 24. If we are referring to "the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place" that seems a real stretch to me??

Where and how do you think the sacrifices will be held? There is more to understand beyond where the abomination of desolation will take place.

Daniel 11:30b-31 So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

It is very difficult for me to step into the middle of a prophecy that covers 45 verses and make 11:30b-31 be anything without first being able to understand all that is said before and after.

[OneLight]

I submit that the temple being built is the corporate Son of which Jesus is the head & not a "natural" temple built by man. God is spirit & has no need of a manmade temple.

This creates the question of why did God have a temple in the first place? If you look into what the temple is going to be used for, it makes sense that one is built again.

The answer to that one seems simple enough. "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." (1Cor 15:46) Seems to me that somewhere along the line this verse, along with others have been expanded to say "natural, spiritual, and then natural again." Just saying. Doesn't it seem so to you?

When we look at the verse in it's context, where it speaks of the rapture, then that which is natural (us) becomes spiritual (our glorified body), it does make sense, but this is not speaking of the temple where men go to worship. It seems to of been lost somewhere in the mix of defining the difference between the believers and the unbelievers temples, but the temple that is to be build will be for the Jewish believers that have not accepted Jesus as their Savior, not for those who do believe where their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. These two are not the same.

ok...where exactly is the scripture you are referencing? I may learn something new today.

The reference to our new glorified bodies is found in chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians. We can also see that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 6:19. The temple, the physical one, is read in Matthew 24, which refers back to Daniel 11 & 12.

Thanks. Will look into the physical temple.

Here's ole stupid me again, but I just can't seem to find a natural rebuilt temple in Matthew 24. If we are referring to "the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place" that seems a real stretch to me??

Where and how do you think the sacrifices will be held? There is more to understand beyond where the abomination of desolation will take place.

Daniel 11:30b-31 So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

It is very difficult for me to step into the middle of a prophecy that covers 45 verses and make 11:30b-31 be anything without first being able to understand all that is said before and after.

Nobody will understand all before we are with Him or before it comes to pass. Read these two chapters in Daniel and see if the Holy Spirit will teach you the meaning.

[sdktlk]

That is to my point. If we do not understand that entire line of prophecy why then would we build such a powerful end time "doctrine" off it But, the Book of Daniel has been opened up in this last time, so that we can understand. We have to, as with everything else, start at the beginning if we are going to come to the end.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

You can read all about the Temple of the Lord that will be rebuilt in Jerusalem during the Millenium Reign in the book of Ezekial.

peace,

dave

My apologies, my original question should have been, "Where does a rebuilt natural temple that would be BLESSED of God come in, as it was God that "rent the veil" in the Temple that then was. If it was God that destroyed the natural temple how could He possibly "build again that which He destroyed," and if it were built again how could God call anything affiliated with it "holy?"

Why do you take communion?

Not quite clear as to what my taking communion has to do with anything. The question is posed how could God have a hand in building again a natural temple, and how could it be declared "holy?"

Since you're reluctant to answer the question honestly I will answer it;

Lu 22:19

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

We take communion in memorial to Him.

The Lord has said this;

Zec 14:20

In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Zec 14:21

Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and boil in them: and in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

What day is the Lord speaking of and what House will those Pot's and Bowls and altar be in? What sacrifice is He talking about?

Zec 14:19

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Are the Nations currently being punished for not Tabernacling with the Lord?

I believe you need to answer these questions before you begin to postulate and spiritualize the Nations (Goyim) away as Israel.

It will be a joy to do these things and it will be done as a memorial to the Living God who dwells amongst us. We will keep the feasts not in some legalist sense but in Freedom. It's what we were designed for, communion with God, in Liberty, practicing our Faith and the God given Oracles and Religion in the Truest sense, the same way that Yeshua did.

peace,

Dave

[Guest yod]

Here's ole stupid me again, but I just can't seem to find a natural rebuilt temple in Matthew 24. If we are referring to "the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place" that seems a real stretch to me??

don't be so hard on yourself!? Everyone must be willing to learn, right?

Here's the verses that matter, imo....

Matt 24

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

There are a couple of points I'd like to make starting with this one. I think Matt 24 was fulfilled by destruction of the Romans in 70 AD, and it will happen again.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

This happened in a very literal way in Israel only 150 years before Yeshua made this statement. Was He unaware of the recent historical reasons for why He went to Jerusalem for Hanukkah?? (Jn 10:22) So, if we can assume He knew what happened there, it's not hard to figure out what the "abomination of desolation" was and is.

The Temple has 3 sections; the outer court, the Holy Place, and the Holy of Holies. Everyone can come into the outer courts, only priests can enter the Holy Place, and only the High Priest can enter the Holy of Holies and then only once a year, on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement)

Antiochus Epiphenes (greek for "Living God") was one of the 4 Generals of Alexander the Great who tried to re-unite Alexander's kingdom after he died. When you read Daniel 11, it's like reading the precise history of what happened....though Daniel wrote this about 300 years earlier.

Antiochus subdued Israel around 150 BC and started sacrificing pigs in the Temple, fulfilling the prophecy of "the abomination that makes desolate". I'm not sure at the moment about what Antiochus exactly did in the Holy Place vs the Holy of Holies, but I doubt any of it escaped his wrath.

When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD (appr 35 years after Yeshua made this statement), in association with burning the Temple, the Romans also put up an altar to Zeus in the holy place, and also began sacrificing pigs on the altar.

But this is another thing about understanding the foundation of how and where we get the Newer Testament. He was making clear references to people who understand the hebraic calendar which come in cycles and seasons (as opposed to the linear calendar we use in the greco-world today). These things always come in cycles and seasons, and there are multiple fulfillments of so many verses. For example...the 4 Horsemen follow the progression of almost every war, so every generation thinks it is being fulfilled in their lifetime.

Yet there is still a specific final fulfillment which is mentioned when He gets to the point of the disciples question. He says to them after talking about the destruction of the Temple;

27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

It's not hard to see that He expected them to understand this as if He meant it in a literal way, and history shows that they did and indeed, so did most early generations of christians. That expectation certainly lagged during the Dark Ages, when "The Church" ruled the world, because "the Church" had changed the definitions and was now a greek institution cut off from it's roots.

None of that takes away from these facts:

1. He said it

2. They heard it and wrote it down for us much later

3. The original audience lived in expectation as did several generations later

4. It was, after all, only a repeat of what He had said through the Prophets of Israel to the people of Israel many times earlier.

5. He told them not to look for a specific date but be prepared when the season for this would happen.

We've had many seasons and cycles of prophecies that are eerily familiar and similar.

Personally, I think there probably will be some kind of a Temple built once a "peace" treaty has been signed over the status of Jerusalem (which is not necessarily the status of Israel) because the Temple Mount is central to the issue, and there are some things about the "abomination of desolation" prophecies which haven't happened yet.

I could be wrong, but I see it as entirely plausable that one man could be so narcissistic that he demands to be adored by everyone. Mainly because it has happened so many times already...

The difference between today's scenario and all past scenarios is:

1. Israel has returned to their land

2. The nation was born in a single day

3. There are jews returning from all corners of the world

At this very minute, there are people who are preparing to build a Temple but Israel is allowing the sworn ancient enemies of the sons of Jacob to control this small hill in the middle of Jerusalem, exactly where Abraham was to sacrifice his son Isaac and the covenant was made giving his descendants that land forever.

The mount of Olives is where He says He will set foot at His return to destroy their enemies. If that were to happen right now, to His right side sits the UN Headquarters on what is known for many centuries as "The Hill of Evil Intent". To his left are most of the holdings of the RCC all the way to Bethlehem, behind Him is the Arabs, Babylonians, and Persians. Only 200 yards across a small valley in front of Him is the The Temple Mount.

[nebula]

The mount of Olives is where He says He will set foot at His return to destroy their enemies. If that were to happen right now, to His right side sits the UN Headquarters on what is known for many centuries as "The Hill of Evil Intent". To his left are most of the holdings of the RCC all the way to Bethlehem, behind Him is the Arabs, Babylonians, and Persians. Only 200 yards across a small valley in front of Him is the The Temple Mount.

Now that's interesting!

[Guest]

The mount of Olives is where He says He will set foot at His return to destroy their enemies. If that were to happen right now, to His right side sits the UN Headquarters on what is known for many centuries as "The Hill of Evil Intent". To his left are most of the holdings of the RCC all the way to Bethlehem, behind Him is the Arabs, Babylonians, and Persians. Only 200 yards across a small valley in front of Him is the The Temple Mount.

Now that's interesting!

Hallelujah~!

[sdktlk]

Here's ole stupid me again, but I just can't seem to find a natural rebuilt temple in Matthew 24. If we are referring to "the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place" that seems a real stretch to me??

don't be so hard on yourself!? Everyone must be willing to learn, right?

Here's the verses that matter, imo....

Matt 24

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

There are a couple of points I'd like to make starting with this one. I think Matt 24 was fulfilled by destruction of the Romans in 70 AD, and it will happen again.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

This happened in a very literal way in Israel only 150 years before Yeshua made this statement. Was He unaware of the recent historical reasons for why He went to Jerusalem for Hanukkah?? (Jn 10:22) So, if we can assume He knew what happened there, it's not hard to figure out what the "abomination of desolation" was and is.

The Temple has 3 sections; the outer court, the Holy Place, and the Holy of Holies. Everyone can come into the outer courts, only priests can enter the Holy Place, and only the High Priest can enter the Holy of Holies and then only once a year, on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement)

Antiochus Epiphenes (greek for "Living God") was one of the 4 Generals of Alexander the Great who tried to re-unite Alexander's kingdom after he died. When you read Daniel 11, it's like reading the precise history of what happened....though Daniel wrote this about 300 years earlier.

Antiochus subdued Israel around 150 BC and started sacrificing pigs in the Temple, fulfilling the prophecy of "the abomination that makes desolate". I'm not sure at the moment about what Antiochus exactly did in the Holy Place vs the Holy of Holies, but I doubt any of it escaped his wrath.

When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD (appr 35 years after Yeshua made this statement), in association with burning the Temple, the Romans also put up an altar to Zeus in the holy place, and also began sacrificing pigs on the altar.

But this is another thing about understanding the foundation of how and where we get the Newer Testament. He was making clear references to people who understand the hebraic calendar which come in cycles and seasons (as opposed to the linear calendar we use in the greco-world today). These things always come in cycles and seasons, and there are multiple fulfillments of so many verses. For example...the 4 Horsemen follow the progression of almost every war, so every generation thinks it is being fulfilled in their lifetime.

Yet there is still a specific final fulfillment which is mentioned when He gets to the point of the disciples question. He says to them after talking about the destruction of the Temple;

27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

It's not hard to see that He expected them to understand this as if He meant it in a literal way, and history shows that they did and indeed, so did most early generations of christians. That expectation certainly lagged during the Dark Ages, when "The Church" ruled the world, because "the Church" had changed the definitions and was now a greek institution cut off from it's roots.

None of that takes away from these facts:

1. He said it

2. They heard it and wrote it down for us much later

3. The original audience lived in expectation as did several generations later

4. It was, after all, only a repeat of what He had said through the Prophets of Israel to the people of Israel many times earlier.

5. He told them not to look for a specific date but be prepared when the season for this would happen.

We've had many seasons and cycles of prophecies that are eerily familiar and similar.

Personally, I think there probably will be some kind of a Temple built once a "peace" treaty has been signed over the status of Jerusalem (which is not necessarily the status of Israel) because the Temple Mount is central to the issue, and there are some things about the "abomination of desolation" prophecies which haven't happened yet.

I could be wrong, but I see it as entirely plausable that one man could be so narcissistic that he demands to be adored by everyone. Mainly because it has happened so many times already...

The difference between today's scenario and all past scenarios is:

1. Israel has returned to their land

2. The nation was born in a single day

3. There are jews returning from all corners of the world

At this very minute, there are people who are preparing to build a Temple but Israel is allowing the sworn ancient enemies of the sons of Jacob to control this small hill in the middle of Jerusalem, exactly where Abraham was to sacrifice his son Isaac and the covenant was made giving his descendants that land forever.

The mount of Olives is where He says He will set foot at His return to destroy their enemies. If that were to happen right now, to His right side sits the UN Headquarters on what is known for many centuries as "The Hill of Evil Intent". To his left are most of the holdings of the RCC all the way to Bethlehem, behind Him is the Arabs, Babylonians, and Persians. Only 200 yards across a small valley in front of Him is the The Temple Mount.

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. It is difficult to see this as is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, as horrible as it might have been. For the event mentioned here is "unequaled from the beginning of the world until now - and NEVER to be equaled again." Titus in 70 A.D., doesn't seem likely to be this spoken of here.

I would imagine the reference to Antiochus would be from Daniel 8:9 where "a little horn" comes into view. If we look at the kingdoms revealed in Daniel we see a progression from the Medo-Persian Empire, which is said to have "became great." (Dan 8:4) Next we see the Grecian Empire said to have "waxed very great," (Dan 8:8,) and then this "little horn" is declared by the Spirit to have "waxed exceeding great." By this revelation of the Lord the last kingdom being spoken of here becomes greater than the two proceeding it. Antiochus was anything but exceeding great, he was small potatoes in the over all scheme of things.

Guess I just lost everyone... no answers?

Edited January 23, 2011 by sdktlk

[sdktlk]

On a personal note ... My wife and I have been married 28 years next month. She, being a Christian for approximately 38 years, generally accepted what is taught with respect to the end-time scenario, with variation of course as there are many different possibilities which have been presented through the years.

One day several years ago she had a Word from the Lord which caused her to begin to question the validity of these prophetic things. Before the Lord she simply understood that a rebuilt natural temple would, in and of itself, be an abomination unto the Lord. That such a rebuilding would be a slap in God's face and a rejection of the sacrifice made by the Lord Jesus on the Cross. To reinstitute the sacrifice of bulls and goats is blasphemy for, "...this Man, after He had offered One sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool..." (Heb 10:12-13)

This revelation from the Lord was very devastating to her because those (the leaders, the teachers, the pastors, the evangelists, the prophets,) who were suppose to know these things and seemed to know the Bible through and through, could not see this? After the initial heartbreak and distress her question then became, "If they can't see this simple concept what else have they gotten wrong?"

[nebula]

This revelation from the Lord was very devastating to her because those (the leaders, the teachers, the pastors, the evangelists, the prophets,) who were suppose to know these things and seemed to know the Bible through and through, could not see this? After the initial heartbreak and distress her question then became, "If they can't see this simple concept what else have they gotten wrong?"

The problem is prophecy has been interpreted through the ages by evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Real prophets have been few and far between. Even though we have more prophets now than we did even 10 years ago, most are in the infancy and childhood stages of their gift and calling. That's why there are so many still working out the kinks of what was the Lord and what wasn't (I've been around and exposed to many prophetic words that didn't come about, and I believe this has more to do with it than anything else).

Interpreting prophecy takes divine revelation in and of itself. You will note than only two people in the New Testament, Simeon and Anna, were prepared for the birth of the Messiah when He came.

Too many Christians are trying to make heads and tails out of Revelation without such divine revelation, and that's why so many are getting so much wrong.