Is once saved always saved?

[His son]

Quote:

I can not understand how anyone who reads the bible, believes in salvation by grace, and the atonement for sins, can turn around and say that you must follow the commandments to be saved, or do good works to keep your salvation, you did not receive it by good works and you can not keep it with good works.

No one posts that we are saved by works. But the Apostles make very definite statements that if we love God as a result of His sacrifice we will accept His free offer of grace, and accept by faith the Work of salvation that God will do in our lives, and that faith will result in and be evidenced by our obedience to God's will in everything, and at the direction of The Holy Spirit. And that we will do this to the extent that people will see Christ living in us. And like Christ said we will do all things He did.

[Guest LadyC]

well, mark can't decided if he really wants to go picket or not, so i'm still here.

I can not understand how anyone who reads the bible, believes in salvation by grace, and the atonement for sins, can turn around and say that you must follow the commandments to be saved, or do good works to keep your salvation, you did not receive it by good works and you can not keep it with good works.

john3:16, please read this thread before you make comments like that. nobody here has said, or even implied, what you just said.

[Work in Progress]

Salvation is based upon the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant was cut in Genesis 15.

God had Abraham prepare the animals and the blood for the Covenant. The animals used incidentally in the Abrahamic Covenant in Gen. 15, are the same as were used in the sacricial system later and all of them pointed to Jesus.

It was customary for the two covenant partners to walk together between the halves of the slaughtered animals and proclaim the oaths of the covenant.

God did something strange though... He put Abraham to sleep. While sleeping Abraham saw two things: A smoking furnace and burning lamp passing between the halves. He saw smoke and fire, God and His Son Jesus walking between the halves making the Covenant!!

The Abramaic Covenant was not cut with Abraham, but rather Abraham just prepared the animals. God and Jesus made the Covenant with one another. God and Jesus were the only ones obligated.

The Abrahamic Covenant did not depend upon Abraham's behavior or what he did or did not do. All Abraham had to do was recieve it by faith, and he did.

God chose the most powerful covenant in Abraham's culture to express how serious He was about fulfilling His promises. Abraham knew that God was serious and that there was NO backing out once God had obligated Himself. God had made a promise that He could not break. This is an unbreakable Covenant. The only way out was if one or both Covenant partners die.

Well, Jesus and God are not dead and will never be dead, so as long as they are alive His promises to Abraham live as well. The Covenant is as real today as it was 5,000 years ago. We who are of faith, are living testimonies to faithfulness of God to His Word.

You did not get in this Covenant because you are good enough, and you will not get out of it because you sinned bad enough. Your goods works cannot save you, and therefore, they cannot unsave you.

Before you were saved, you were not going to hell because of you did, you were going to hell becaue of what you were. Your deeds had nothing to do with it. God did not deliver you from your sins, He delivered you from SIN.

That was one of the best posts I've read in a long time. Thanks, Shiloh.

[dgolvach]

When we sin as Christians, is Christ lording over our life or are we?

[dgolvach]

1 Corinthians 6:12 "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful." Sin has never really helped much in the long run. As a matter of fact, it's cause some real damage in my life on this earth. Im not saying because I believe OSAS that we should "Eat, Drink and chase Mary" because we have escaped hell. I am just making the point that all of us do and will continue to sin until we die. At least everyone I know. I don't believe most of our sin is done without knowing better. Especially if you know the Bible. So it is willfully and we all do it to some extent. Or...Perhaps we don't know everything about ourselves that dosen't meet God's standard and He in His mercy shows us only a little at a time so we aren't just crushed by how far off we really are and just give up in trying to live a life that honors Him. If sin can cause us to lose it, we're sunk!

[larryt]

I'd like to bring up something I didn't see address. shammah said

The Parable of the seeds show that the first man of stoney ground didn't understand, and the wicked one took it away. But the second and third men recieved the word, one fell away because of persecution, and the other because of the riches and cares of this world! Men always have choices to fall away even when they believe the word and confess the Messiah, they still have free will ;

In

Controversial Issues; Salvation for works, or works for salvation

Wordsower had a very good word study on the word "root"

It helps in the understanding of the Parable of the Sower. I believe it shows: a rejecter, 2 false converts (- never knew you), and a true convert.

LT

[John3;16]

if you believe you can lose your salvation, do you believe that it is through some action you perform? (an evil work), or becoming an anti-believer, perdition is mentioned in sripture which means to enter into destruction, but is what you are saying that, someone must choose to become unsaved? or do you believe that the Lord chooses who will fall from grace?

1 John|2:1 My little children, these things write I unto

you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate

with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

[Kabowd]

1. Here the whole argument for OSAS rests in what the Scriptures do not say.

I'm not exactly sure why you say this, I've posted several verses that flat out say that we are secure, covered, paid for, ransomed, bought, sealed, guarenteed, etc. Were you meaning just this one verse (2 Cor. 5:17?)

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come."

If we read it in context, it further suggests that being "in Christ" results in complete change in our identity.

"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation."

Note that He is committed to reconciling us and that those He has reconciled, He no longer holds their sins against them.

I wholeheartedly agree that we do become a new creation. I was a new creation when I got saved originally. I loved God and I obeyed Him, but over time I began to live in rebellion and I left God. This new creation went out the window, I let the devil have my life.

I appreciate your testimony and do not mean to sound like I'm disregarding it. But when we are searching for truth we can't base our beliefs largely on experiences. We have to put our experiences in the perspective of truth.

2. You are putting human aspects on what you are putting guarantee into. Sonship with regards to the human aspect was not our choice nor is it dependent upon us being submissive to our parents.

Actually, it was God who made this analogy not me. Why would He use this picture (of adoption and "sonship") over and over throughout Scripture if it had loopholes or was faulty? I believe God used terms we could understand. Therefore, following God's own example..I have no choice but to believe that once I become His child...by His own committment...He keeps me as His own and never rejects me. Even if I disobey (as any child does), I am still His child.

On the other hand, becoming a child of God is something that we submit to and is dependent upon our submission. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:32:33

This verse shows a classic case of being disowned and disinherited. If we deny Jesus, he will deny us.

"Dependent upon our submission"? This is equivalent to works, not grace. To say our salvation is dependent upon our obedience is to say that works are a necessary part of salvation. While I agree we are called to obedience, I do not believe our salvation is "dependent upon it". Salvation is a work that God does on our behalf. Also, these verses do not contradict OSAS. If we deny or reject accepting Christ, obviously we will not be saved. If we accept Him, obviously we will be accepted into heaven.

If Jesus says He will not erase a name from the book, then He must possess the power to erase names.

Now look who's basing their argument on what the Scriptures do not say. To say that Jesus must "erase" a name, is to imply there was an error or that something happened which He did not expect. Do you really not believe that Christ knows who is saved and who isn't? If He removes names from the Lamb's book of Life each time we turn our back on Him, then He is constantly writing, erasing, writing, erasing, writing, erasing. This makes no sense at all. Why would He leave the glory of heaven, come to earth in the most humble and vulnerable way He did, suffer and die a brutal death to bring salvation...if it wasn't going to be enough...if the ultimate power still rested in our own hands?

4. The promise of John 10:28, is only to the

[larryt]

Yes, I'm pooped

I would be too. Good disertation though.

I think you mentioned eternal. I'll mention everlasting. It is mentioned a lot. Here is one:

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

everlasting means

166 ~aiwniov~ aionios \@ahee-o'-nee-os\@

from 165; TDNT-1:208,31; adj

AV-eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,

      since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and

    always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

For Synonyms see entry 5801

Q: When does something that never ceases, cease to exist?

LT

[shammah]

Rev. 3:5; He that covercometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment; and I will not (BLOT OUT HIS NAME) out of the book of Life! So clearly names will be blotted out that are unable to overcome the trials, and endure to the end!

Rev. 2:5,4; Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.....4; because thou hast left thy first love (Christ)!

I know this is a contraversial subject, but consider this, God knows the number of His children, its better to work out that relationship with Him in awsome fear and trembling, but also in trust and agape love! Many who we might think would be in heaven won't, many who were first will be last and last first; God knows His family and we must trust that He will not loose one of them! Unfortunately many who appear to be his, will never be humbled ,and produce fruits unto righteousnness; lets let Jesus judge this, and have faith in His judgement.

In Yah Shua's Name ; Shammah-2.