Is once saved always saved?

[Guest shiloh357]

What I see from the anti-OSAS camp is a very subjective approach to the issue.

The arguments from that side seem to go like this: "I used to be OSAS until I fell into sin, myself." Then Scriptures are interpreted in the light of that experience. I am not saying that everyone is coming from that perspective, but I have seen several in this forum that do. That is very subjective and is not the most reliable way to interpret Scripture. We should not interpret Scripture in the light of our life experiences.

OSAS is blamed for giving people a false sense of security, and the idea that they can go out and sin as much as they want, because its OK, since salvation cannot be lost. That is a perverted interpretation of OSAS positions and no matter how many times we have tried to explain that we are not saying "sin as much as you want," The anti-OSAS camp insists upon assigning that value to us, because unless they can successfully paint the OSAS as a "license to sin," they really do not have an argument.

I have noticed that the anti-OSAS camp fails to make the distinction between falling into sin for a season, and apostacy. The failure to make that distinction further discredits their case, because it shows either and inability or a refusal to employ proper hermeneutics when putting forth Scriptures that they believe fortify their position.

We who believe OSAS are accused of "ignoring" certain Scriptures, when in reality we are not ignoring them, but rather choose only to apply the Scriptures that actually address the issue under consideration. We choose not to run and grab a verse from this and that part of the Bible irrespective of its context, subject matter. That is part of using proper hermeneutic principles.

If salvation can be lost, there would be entire chapters devoted to the subject. It would be just about the most important subject for a Christian. If Salvation can be lost through backslidding or "falling away," then it would come up in every place where salvation is mentioned in all of Pauls epistles, and the other epistles as well. As it stands the anti-OSAS can only use Scriptures from this and that part of the Bible, and usually they are not even addressing the issue under consideration.

One would need to know what the parameters are. The answer could not be something ambiguous such as "when you backslide, or "when you fall away." We need to know EXACTLY where God draws the line, since we do not know when we are going to die. We don't want to cross the line and then run out of time to get back into God's good graces.

How many sins? How many months or years can one live in sin before God cuts them off? If you are saved on January 1, 2004 and by January 1, 2005 you have lost your salvation, that means you have crossed a line somewhere. Where is that line? How long will God contiue to compromise His holiness before He finally has had His fill of your sin, and revokes your salvation? Adam and Eve fell after only ONE sin. One sin kept Moses out of the Holy Land. One sin marked Cain with a curse from God for the rest of his life. One sin caused the sons of Aaron to be struck dead by God. One sin cause God to kill Annaias and Sapphira.

What value does the grace of God have if it only keeps you when you are living right? Christians are people with struggles and weaknesses, and failures. Everyone has hangups, and we all have experienced the "roller coaster" Christian life. If the grace of God departs when you screw up, then it is not worth the paper our Bibles are printed on. Grace finds its value when we experience it at a time in our lives, when we deserve it the least.

[larryt]

Q: If someone looses their salvation and is headed to destruction after they were saved by the blood of the Lamb, can they get their salvation back?

[Guest Called]

Honestly, I do view this with an open mind already. I'd encourage you to take a fresh look at it. Sometimes we are raised with certain beliefs and come to a point of questioning them (which is healthy)..but if we don't study deep enough we can end up rejecting something  because we think we believed it only because "that's how we were raised". I've discovered (from much study) that what I've been taught has merit behind it and isn't based on tradition. I agree that we should question why we believe what we believe. But we must also be careful not to reject something because it's something we have been taught.

Yes, I'm pooped

Tess, I disagree with what you have said. You disagree with what I say. Let's just agree to disagree. If you want I will be happy to refute everything you said, again. However, I am not feeling led too, I really try to only debate it with those I feel are ready to receive the truth. I am not saying it in a rude or condescending way at all, so please don't think that. You are a great sister in the Lord. :hug: However, people (not speaking to just you) are taking what we say out of context and then we start running in circles and it is really of no benefit. If you would like to PM me and we can discuss it, that will be fine. I appreciate you being civil, I know these debates can get heated at times! I am going to bow out now of this thread, but I want to leave with a verse. I believe it was Bob that posted this verse earlier. There is no way one can look at this verse and receive revelation from God about it and still believe in OSAS. No way.

2 Peter 2:20-22

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

God Bless!

Debbie

[Orr v'emet]

To say our salvation is dependent upon our obedience is to say that works are a necessary part of salvation. While I agree we are called to obedience, I do not believe our salvation is "dependent upon it".

Tess, let me address this comment with some scripture:

1 John 2:3And how can we be sure that we belong to him? By obeying his commandments. 4If someone says, "I belong to God," but doesn't obey God's commandments, that person is a liar and does not live in the truth. 5But those who obey God's word really do love him. That is the way to know whether or not we live in him. 6Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did.

These verses tell me that our "salvation" is dependent on our obedience to God's commands. The bible goes so far as to say that the person is a liar and does not live the truth and that they don't really love God. It also says that we are not in Him if we disobey His commands. To me it doesn't get any clearer.

I also believed OSAS until very recently. The Holy Spirit has just revealed things to me over and over and I think to myself "how did I miss it all this time?" Alot of people think that there is alot of fear in believing that we can lose our salvation, but that is a misconception. If we are doing what we are supposed to be doing according to God's commands then it isn't even an issue at all. The danger in believing OSAS (for some) is that it makes us spiritually lazy and keeps us from recognizing how important repentance is and being in a right relationship with God. I know, I was there for years. I, like Bob, was a christian and lived a christian life for a couple years. I eventually fell away. I stopped obeying God's commands and frankly wasn't concerned because I thought He would always be there and that I would go to heaven regardless. If I had died in that time of my life I would have gone to hell. Thank God He restored me and I am now in a right relationship with Him! We can't live however we want and expect God's blessings and promise of heaven. We have to have that patient endurance as the bible says so that we will reap the reward in the end. (IMO)

[irishcowboy]

Kristin,

I agree, we have to be living the life God wants us to live..... we have to remain loyal to God.... God does not want any slackards, or lazies, God wants those that are fruitful, those that have lasting fruits.....

mike

[dgolvach]

OK then it's settled. IT IS THE LAW. Be sure to follow all of it. One mistake is enough for hell or Jesus would not have had to have been perfect. Perfection is the standard.

[Kabowd]

Tess, I disagree with what you have said. You disagree with what I say. Let's just agree to disagree. If you want I will be happy to refute everything you said, again.

Again? You've done so before? I believe I've refuted everything you've said (by using hermeneutics and exegesis ....not experience and misinterpretation).

However, I am not feeling led too, I really try to only debate it with those I feel are ready to receive the truth. I am not saying it in a rude or condescending way at all, so please don't think that. You are a great sister in the Lord.

Debbie, I say this with as much love as possible, but this was a very arrogant statement. Covering it with a compliment at the end does not conceal the arrogance in it. You have presumed several things here:

#1 That you alone know the truth.

#2 That I do not know the truth.

#3 That I am unwilling to receive truth.

#4 That I am naive enough to accept these statements if they are said in a kind way.

Debbie, with all due respect, everytime I've expounded on the loopholes in your argument, you decide to bow out; citing "I don't feel led to continue" or "you aren't ready to hear the truth". This is disingenuous at best and downright deceptive at worst. I'm not trying to be rude at all, but you insist on asserting that you know that truth and that I not only believe a lie...but refuse the truth. Why do you enter a discussion if you aren't going to stand firm in it to the end? To keep entering the same discussion and continue bowing out when the questions get tough is not fair to the rest of us who take the effort to discuss the issue deeper.

However, people (not speaking to just you) are taking what we say out of context and then we start running in circles and it is really of no benefit. If you would like to PM me and we can discuss it, that will be fine.

Again, we really aren't running in circles. You present your argument, it's refuted and we hit a brick wall. Until you can refute what I've presented (in depth) in my last post..it's not a circle. It's merely ignoring the evidence presented.

I also do not understand your willingness to discuss it privately, but not publicly. This is rather curious to me. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to all to continue the discussion on the board where we can all discover truth together? I'm not understanding the reasoning here.

I appreciate you being civil, I know these debates can get heated at times! I am going to bow out now of this thread, but I want to leave with a verse.

I hope after reading this post, that you still feel that I have treated you with love and respect. I strongly disagree with the way you handle this discussion (everytime we have it! ), but I do love you and respect you greatly and appreciate your input elsewhere on the boards. I would like to ask though, that if you are truly bowing out..please refrain from interjecting or "drive-by" posting. The reason I say this is because I've seen several times where ppl will say "I'm leaving this discussion"..then will occassionally pop in and leave remarks here and there. The problem with that is, it seems they are using the "bowing out" as an escape for things they cannot refute...and only interject when they want to repeat something they've already stated or agree with someone else who's posted.

Whew...now having addressed all the personal comments, back to the topic at hand

With regards to the 2 Peter verses. There are several scriptures that the anti-OSAS believers tend to use (this being one of them) that are a part of specific warnings against false teachers. Others used (I'll help you out ) are: 1 Tim. 4:1,2; 2 Tim 3:1-5; 4:3, 4; 2 Pet. 3:3, 4; 2 John 1:9-11; Jude 1:4-19. ALL of these verses are written to churches warning them about the "last days" and how false teachers will attempt to lead them to apostacy. Jude refers to the false teachers as "they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit." There is no indication that they were saved or possessed personal faith. The "faith" that they were said to depart from is in reference to Jude 3: "the faith [or message of the faith] which was once delivered to the saints".

Now to Krisin:

First of all, I think it's wise for us to try to refrain from using Scripture to combat Scripture. Many of us have listed several verses which refute losing salvation, and then someone who disagrees will try to dispute it with one or two verses from random places. Personally, I think if we are to discover truth, we need to spend more time discussing each verse individually and hear each perspective on it's interpretation before we keep moving on. Would you like to address my last post and the verses I listed? Or my post before that and the verses I listed in there? Or the verses and points made by shiloh? I'd love to hear your input on those. But since you brought another verse up, let's go ahead and look at it:

"And how can we be sure that we belong to him? By obeying his commandments. If someone says, "I belong to God," but doesn't obey God's commandments, that person is a liar and does not live in the truth. But those who obey God's word really do love him. That is the way to know whether or not we live in him. Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did." I John 2:3-6

First of all, the entire book of 1 John is an exhortation of godly conduct and "tests" of the Christian's life. These "tests" are set forth to show evidence of salvation, not to earn or "keep" it. Notice that he says those who blatantly disobey God and claim to know Him are liars. This is consistent with OSAS. I refer you back to John 10:28 where Jesus says, "My sheep, hear My voice, I know them, and they [the one's He knows] follow Him ." This passage does NOT say: "you must obey His commands in order to belong to Him" (which is what you are interpreting it to say). To imply this contradicts all of the other scripture presented which clearly state that works are not required to obtain salvation, but are rather evidence of salvation.

There has yet to be a valid response to several of the other scriptures posted. I am especially interested in hearing a valid argument against the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Here are some of the verses:

"Who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a deposit." 2 Corinthians 1:22

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." Ephesians 1:13

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed for the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

My questions to those who do not believe OSAS:

#1 Are all believers sealed by the Holy Spirit?

#2 Are we commanded to be sealed, or is it something done on our behalf?

#3 When does the sealing take place?

#4 What is the purpose of the "seal"?

#5 What is the "promise" or "guarentee" for?

#6 Is the seal permanent? If not, scriptures please.

I understand that several of you have said "I used to believe in OSAS". Do you realize that there are only about 25 verses in the entire Bible used against OSAS? We've seen several of them used in this topic, but the argument against them crumbles when we expound or do deeper study. Especially in light of the numerous Scriptures that do support OSAS. I will quote what shiloh said earlier:

I have noticed that the anti-OSAS camp fails to make the distinction between falling into sin for a season, and apostacy. The failure to make that distinction further discredits their case, because it shows either and inability or a refusal to employ proper hermeneutics when putting forth Scriptures that they believe fortify their position.

We who believe OSAS are accused of "ignoring" certain Scriptures, when in reality we are not ignoring them, but rather choose only to apply the Scriptures that actually address the issue under consideration. We choose not to run and grab a verse from this and that part of the Bible irrespective of its context, subject matter. That is part of using proper hermeneutic principles.

[irishcowboy]

No,

I do not believe that you understand......

if a person is living for God, doing as God wants them to, they believe in Jesus, and take Him as their Lord and Savior.... that their Heart is with Christ, when they slip up, and sin, they repent from it and put it behind them ( repent from it, with no intention of doing it again ), they are forgiven and therefore they are clean, their name is in the Book of Life.... if they should by chance sin and die before they sin, they will be taken care of by the Lord, for the Lord knows what is in our hearts.....

if however, we are not living for Christ and have burdens/sin resting on our shoulders and are living in sin, even thou a person has ( at one time ) asked the Lord into their hearts.... if they sin and do not ask forgiveness and repent from it, they are taking their own eternal life into their own hands...... for God knows what is in their hearts......

i have heard people say that it is ok for them to mess up and run around on their spouse, cause they are a "Christian" and all they have to do is go to confession, or they are saved and that once they are saved it dont matter what they do.....

dont let them fool you.....

example is like the 10 virgins, 5 had prepared and kept them selves ready..... 5 were foolish, even thou they believed in the Bridegroom was coming, they did not keep themselves prepared, thus, when the wedding feast began, they were left out in the cold.....

if a person is not ready, and if a person does not keep themselves ready, then they will not be welcomed at the Wedding feast of the Lamb.....

again if a person is lazy.... they may know the master, they may even know the masters will.... but if they are lazy, and do not work their talents, they too, will suffer the consequences..... sorry, but that is just how it is......

we are to live our lives as a living wittness for Jesus, if we are drunk, cheating, stealing, lying, whoremongering, gossiping, cursing, so forth and so on, what kind of wittness is that for the Lord? what are we doing with our talents? have we put them to work? or have we hid them ( being lazy )? are we working them to the fullest extent we can? are our fruits those that will last? or will they be gone when tested by fire? will we have anything left after the our rewards are tested?

personally, I do not understand how a person can allow the Lord to depart from their presence.... the more I get of the Lord, the more I want of the Lord..... when the Spirit filled me, i wanted more each and every day.....

we are not to become complacent, rather, we are to stride forth and exit our comfort zone.....

Moses did, Abraham did, Jonah did, Joseph did, Elijah did..... why not us?

the only way a person is not going to do something wrong, the only way a person will never make a mistake, or stumble or say something that might offend some one is if they do absolutely nothing......

I have grown weary of people being cut down because they made a mistake while working for God..... at least they are working for God.... they might even mess up, but they can also seek forgiveness and repent...... also, what this one person is doing might not be a mistake, it might be exactly what God told them to do.... they may have been told by God to "STIR THE ASHES" and cause the body to become alive again....... it might be them that bring a fellowship from near death to full life again by stiring the ashes, rocking the boat.....

our wisdom is nothing more then foolishness to God......

who would think that there would be a major flood in the middle of an dry region? Noah was acting on instructions from God and followed thru with them...... he was a fool, nuts, physco, a moron as far as the people were concerned....

was Noah perfect? no, not at all... he had his faults, one of them was he liked wine, which caused a rift in the family...... did he repent? i am sure he did.... was he still in the graces of God? I am sure he was, God knows what was in his heart.

David, wow, talk about some one that had problems..... but yet, David was a man that had a relationship with God that was beyond explanation.....

God wants us all to have a personal relationship.....

Israel didnt have that, they didnt want that, they were afraid of this relationship, but Moses and Aaron wanted this relationship.... and they had it.....

Elisha wanted twice the blessings Elijah wanted, and both men had a personal relationship with God...... some times their message was definitly not what the people wanted to hear, it was totally not what was popular..... but they carried it anyways......

if a person is a God fearing God loving person, doing Gods will, living for Christ, the Lord knows this..... if they only profess it with their mouth but show no witness for Christ, then the Lord knows this as well.....

a man, very prominant in the community, a church goer, cheats those he rents houses to, tells dirty jokes to anyone that will listen, tryes to weazle out of paying for work done, where is his heart? God knows..... where will this man be when the Rapture takes place? God knows..... I hope that this man does too......

where will I be? flying high with the Lord.....

mike

[apothanein kerdos]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. I have not met a single student of the Greek that believes you can lose your salvation. We lose so much in the English translations...

Rev. 3:5; He that covercometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment; and I will not (BLOT OUT HIS NAME) out of the book of Life! So clearly names will be blotted out that are unable to overcome the trials, and endure to the end!

Rev. 2:5,4; Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.....4; because thou hast left thy first love (Christ)!

First and foremost, these scriptures are narratives to the seven churches in Revelation. Thus they are not meant to be theological in nature nor doctrinal. They can be used as support, but to base a beleif off of them or to use them as a building block in a theological discourse is bad hermenuetics.

Secondly, none of this deals with Salvation. If anything is supports the belief all men are predestined to salvation but only a few choose God. Thus, all of our names are written in the Book of Life, yet are blotted out if we reject God. The reason I say this, is to believe that we can lose our salvation and thus have our names blotted out and then again come back goes against the Greek word exaleipho (where we get the word blot). It is the same word that is used in many Greek text when refering to white washing something. It is to cover it up completely never to be seen again. Thus if we believe a person can be saved and then lose their salvation, once this action is done, they cannot come back. This of course causes a problem when we look at how Peter denied Christ yet came back and even how John-Mark abandoned the faith and still came back. Thus the text in Revelation eventually proves nothing more than the fact that God has predestined us all to salvation yet our names are removed when reject Him as Lord and savior.

As for the lampstand, we must remember that this passage is written to a congregation and not to a person. God is removing a blessing, His power, from a congregation of believers, not from a single believe. We cannot gain salvation by association or by the group we're in, likewise, we cannot lose it in that way either. Either way, the candlestick (luchnia) is refering to the light, or the blessing, God has bestowed upon that church.

1 John 2:3And how can we be sure that we belong to him? By obeying his commandments. 4If someone says, "I belong to God," but doesn't obey God's commandments, that person is a liar and does not live in the truth. 5But those who obey God's word really do love him. That is the way to know whether or not we live in him. 6Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did.

Oi, to attempt to draw the belief of lost salvation out of this verse just baffles me. Even reading it in the English shows that John is telling us that beliefs are proof of our salvation, not a part of our salvation itself. John is telling the reader how to tell if we are truly a child of God, or how to determine if someone is a false prophet or not. The utter irony is that in verse 2 we find that John is telling us our advocate (parakletos) in Jesus. The Greek word parakletos is where we get our english word 'paralegal'. Basically, Jesus is our defense lawyer. Thus, in verse two we see John saying that even if we do sin, we have a defense in Jesus Christ. This defeats a works based theology on salvation. In a works based theology, we must conclude that all works that are not for God are sin. Thus any sin we commit would seperate us from God. There is no litmus test in this theology. What causes us to lose our salvation? Turning away from God? Renouncing Him? Isn't that what we do everytime we sin? Yet I digress. John is telling the reader that our advocate is in Christ Jesus, and that if we do the works of God, or have the desire to, that is proof that we are saved.

Please, anyone who wants to use the "Holy Spirit told me" arguement in this debate will pretty much be ignored. I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, what I don't believe is that the Holy Spirit would go against what the Bible teaches (i.e. Salvation can be lost). If someone wants to bring up scriptures, with interpretation and even Greek, I will be more than happy to discuss this issue with you.

[dgolvach]

I once believed you could lose your salvation and thats why I never felt worthy of recieving it. I hear the same people (who taught me that) say that the reason they know they are still in a" salvation state" is because they are allowing Christ to completely rule their life. I then ask, do you ever sin? They all say.."well..yes, we all do sometimes". Then I have to say," excuse me, but you can't sin if Christ is COMPLETELTY in control of your life because He dose not sin". And then they will say that well... they sometime stray from Christ a little..... right after they just told me that Christ is completely in control of their lives? If you are maintaining your salvation than you really have achieved something to be very proud of.