Babylon the Great???

[nebula]

Neb, I attended "church" for many years, and my greatest desire was and is to fellowship. And, I have learned a great deal from the teachings and fellowship of others, some of the greatest teachers of all are those who do not even realize they are teaching you anything. However, when the Lord shows you the Truth you have two options, either to walk in it or not. I do still fellowship with Christians though, just not under the man made "signs."

OK, now I'm confused. That was not the impression you gave with what you wrote before, and when challenged on it, you never clarified this to be the case.

I'd apologize if I could figure out how my understanding was in error.

I, like yourself, have believed all of what is taught concerning the assembly, the 7 year trib, a one man anti-christ, a rebuilt temple, etc. etc. But, when Truth comes along, again, one has to decide. I did not start out with the understandings that I have today, we all are suppose to understand that "the path of the just is as the shining light, it shines more and more unto the perfect day." (Pro 4:18) If the Light is not getting brighter the problem then is not with the Light, it is with us.

I don't know what you mean by "all of what is taught", for I've heard so many contradictory teachings on the matter.

Do I reject what I was initially taught? Yes. Do I embrace a new interpretation? Not anymore! I have my leanings, but I have found danger in claiming to have a handle on the true interpretation.

I would say that the greatest thrust of what I've said here is that if we, as children of God, want to come into a "unity of the faith" then we need to understand the "strait gate." That we need to search out, before God, by His Holy Spirit for ourselves, what is Truth.

And here is where I have a disagreement.

Reading the verse in context:

Matt. 7

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask , and it shall be given you; seek , and ye shall find ; knock , and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth ; and he that seeketh findeth ; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened . 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat : 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The "strait gate" is sandwiched between the command to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" [different way of wording the same thing] and false prophets being known by their deeds (what fruit symbolizes) - not by their thinking.

The Christian walk is about doing. Yet we place more emphasis on "thinking".

Unity of faith isn't going to come through having 100% belief agreement, but on doing the work of the Gospel together. That's what Jesus talked about the most - how to live. How to think is only addressed a few times (i.e. the Sadducees challenge to Him that there is no resurrection).

I've worked in ministry with people of different denominational persuasions just fine. I have a friend who joined a Catholic Church in obedience to her mother (she was still a teen), but the Lord (and she testifies how it was the Lord) led her to a Catholic Church that actually preaches the Gospel and allowed her to worship through the playing of her guitar.

So I disagree with this belief-push being the means of bringing unity.

But I do discover that, just as the teachings of the "strait gate" being spoken to the disciples and not to unbelievers at large,

I personally find it odd to classify the Jews back then in terms of "believers" or "non-believers". When Jesus spoke this, it was at the beginning of His ministry, and at this point people were just discovering who He is. I am not so sure the whole crowd believed in Him with confidence as their Messiah, the Son of God. Notice how their impression was one of wonder, but still questioning/seeking.

and having discovered that the "stars" in Revelation can also point to human beings, at that point, when another point of view becomes indefensible, there is no yielding to the Truth.

There is a possibility there. But, prophecy is so much deeper than having one manifestation. History in the Jewish mindset is a spiral, a progressive circle. That is, history repeats itself, yet it is directed forward. There can be many manifestations to the prophetic word that lead to its' ultimate end.

Example, the Abomination of Desolation occurred more than once.

And yes I have made it clear about the Harlot and her daughters. Love sounds an alarm, it does not remain silent, elsewise it is not love. This is not said in "defense" of myself, simply to say it would seem we need to be careful as to what we are in "defense" of, and that would apply to all, myself included, who would seem to be somewhat.

The only thing that will bring down the walls is a unity based on LOVE, not on a change of beliefs.

[sdktlk]

Neb, I attended "church" for many years, and my greatest desire was and is to fellowship. And, I have learned a great deal from the teachings and fellowship of others, some of the greatest teachers of all are those who do not even realize they are teaching you anything. However, when the Lord shows you the Truth you have two options, either to walk in it or not. I do still fellowship with Christians though, just not under the man made "signs."

OK, now I'm confused. That was not the impression you gave with what you wrote before, and when challenged on it, you never clarified this to be the case.

I'd apologize if I could figure out how my understanding was in error.

I, like yourself, have believed all of what is taught concerning the assembly, the 7 year trib, a one man anti-christ, a rebuilt temple, etc. etc. But, when Truth comes along, again, one has to decide. I did not start out with the understandings that I have today, we all are suppose to understand that "the path of the just is as the shining light, it shines more and more unto the perfect day." (Pro 4:18) If the Light is not getting brighter the problem then is not with the Light, it is with us.

I don't know what you mean by "all of what is taught", for I've heard so many contradictory teachings on the matter.

Do I reject what I was initially taught? Yes. Do I embrace a new interpretation? Not anymore! I have my leanings, but I have found danger in claiming to have a handle on the true interpretation.

I would say that the greatest thrust of what I've said here is that if we, as children of God, want to come into a "unity of the faith" then we need to understand the "strait gate." That we need to search out, before God, by His Holy Spirit for ourselves, what is Truth.

And here is where I have a disagreement.

Reading the verse in context:

Matt. 7

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask , and it shall be given you; seek , and ye shall find ; knock , and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth ; and he that seeketh findeth ; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened . 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat : 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The "strait gate" is sandwiched between the command to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" [different way of wording the same thing] and false prophets being known by their deeds (what fruit symbolizes) - not by their thinking.

The Christian walk is about doing. Yet we place more emphasis on "thinking".

Unity of faith isn't going to come through having 100% belief agreement, but on doing the work of the Gospel together. That's what Jesus talked about the most - how to live. How to think is only addressed a few times (i.e. the Sadducees challenge to Him that there is no resurrection).

I've worked in ministry with people of different denominational persuasions just fine. I have a friend who joined a Catholic Church in obedience to her mother (she was still a teen), but the Lord (and she testifies how it was the Lord) led her to a Catholic Church that actually preaches the Gospel and allowed her to worship through the playing of her guitar.

So I disagree with this belief-push being the means of bringing unity.

But I do discover that, just as the teachings of the "strait gate" being spoken to the disciples and not to unbelievers at large,

I personally find it odd to classify the Jews back then in terms of "believers" or "non-believers". When Jesus spoke this, it was at the beginning of His ministry, and at this point people were just discovering who He is. I am not so sure the whole crowd believed in Him with confidence as their Messiah, the Son of God. Notice how their impression was one of wonder, but still questioning/seeking.

and having discovered that the "stars" in Revelation can also point to human beings, at that point, when another point of view becomes indefensible, there is no yielding to the Truth.

There is a possibility there. But, prophecy is so much deeper than having one manifestation. History in the Jewish mindset is a spiral, a progressive circle. That is, history repeats itself, yet it is directed forward. There can be many manifestations to the prophetic word that lead to its' ultimate end.

Example, the Abomination of Desolation occurred more than once.

And yes I have made it clear about the Harlot and her daughters. Love sounds an alarm, it does not remain silent, elsewise it is not love. This is not said in "defense" of myself, simply to say it would seem we need to be careful as to what we are in "defense" of, and that would apply to all, myself included, who would seem to be somewhat.

The only thing that will bring down the walls is a unity based on LOVE, not on a change of beliefs.

In order to "do" something we first have to learn to sit. To just do something can get us in trouble as it did the Apostle Paul immediately after his conversion and caused him to understand that he first had to learn how to sit, before he could stand and then walk out that which the Lord had apprehended him to do. We are instructed by the Lord, in His FIRST teaching, to enter in through the strait gate, does it not behove us to understand clearly what He meant by that, as it would seem to carry great weight.

Again, bad choice of words, I should have said disciples rather than believers. It again seems that hairs are split as to exactly who the Lord was speaking, although they did believe in Jesus, and were "justified by faith," at that time. And, this first teaching again was given to the disciples, not the multitudes, by the context of the Scripture, as He took the disciples apart and opened His and taught them saying... The non believer had, and has no more possibility of following the Word of the Lord than a man in the moon.

You say you hold no stance, with respect to coming end-time events, but by your posts it is evident that you do. Just as with your mentioning "the abomination that desolates" and stating it is again and again a reoccurring event.

The Jews of Jesus' day had so misunderstood prophetic things that they looked over a "coming of the Lord" and was looking for a different set of events to take place. I can't understand why it should be beyond the pale that it could be happening again, if things occur more than once. Which, by the way, I am in agreement that some certain things do repeat.

[nebula]

You say you hold no stance, with respect to coming end-time events, but by your posts it is evident that you do. Just as with your mentioning "the abomination that desolates" and stating it is again and again a reoccurring event.

I'll have to get to the rest of your post later.

But for this - understanding the Hebrew mindset and comparing that to history with prophecy is one thing. Making heads or tails out of the End of Days when it isn't our history yet is a different matter.

The Abomination happened with Antiachus E.... (however you spell that). It also happened in 70AD - Christians remembered Jesus' words and knew to "flee to the mountains" before Rome destroyed the city and killed everyone in there.

Is the Abomination the Dome of the Rock? Could be. Is it idolatry within the Church? Could be. (Not sure what "Judea" and "flee to the mountains" would be in this case, though.) Is it a physical rebuilt temple before Jesus' return that the Anti-Christ will inhabit? Could be. We're still on the spiral of time.

[sdktlk]

I got nothing on the cup , but have always associated hand with ministry.

There is much said in Scripture about a "cup." But as it is a "golden cup" which, as you said, points to the Person and Nature of God we see the Lord Jesus referring to a cup, "and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Mat 26:39) And again the Lord said to the disciples, with respect to a cup, "can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized." (Mar 10:38b-39)

The cup the Lord is referring to here is that which contains the will of God for His life. And He told the disciples they too would drink of that same cup, which was the will of God for the disciples lives. By this we can see that a "golden cup" should contain the will of God for the believers life, that is it should contain "the water of life." (Rev 22:17) However, the "golden cup" in the hand of this woman does not contain "the water of life" it is full of "abominations and filthiness of her fornication." There is death in her cup.

The "hand" does signify ministry along with fellowship, blessing, safety, love, etc. This hand should be "holding forth the Word of Life" (Php 2:16,) but we see it is not.

The appearance of this woman does not seem to match up with her being anything that could be classified as a secular government. She is however joined together with a "scarlet colored beast." Any thoughts anyone?

I see what you mean about the cup. Looks like that would be an interesting study in itself. As for the beast I think it is all the unsaved peoples of the earth as in Rev17:15. Though could be wrong as I have not put a lot of study into it. I do see the woman as the corrupt religious system of the world though and can see why God says "Come out of her ,my people....".

If there is any "rule" to interpreting symbolic prophecy then we would have to understand, from the four "beasts" that rose up out of the sea in the Book of Daniel, that the "beast" this woman abides upon here has to be representative of secular, that is worldly government. So, if that is the case then we have a picture of some "woman" who is coupled with a "beast," so the "woman" cannot, in and of herself, be any particular country or nation, as she is riding upon secular government." We, as believers, cannot come out of the entire world so the question remains who is the "her" that we are commanded to "come out of?"

[nebula]

In order to "do" something we first have to learn to sit.

by "doing," I am speaking of day by day "how to live".

To just do something can get us in trouble as it did the Apostle Paul immediately after his conversion and caused him to understand that he first had to learn how to sit, before he could stand and then walk out that which the Lord had apprehended him to do.

What did Paul do that got him into trouble after his conversion? Being blinded was a part of what got him converted.

His stillness was because he was reconnecting with God and getting to know Jesus.

We are instructed by the Lord, in His FIRST teaching, to enter in through the strait gate, does it not behove us to understand clearly what He meant by that, as it would seem to carry great weight.

In Matthew, His very first teaching is: "Repent : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

The teaching on the strait gate is not found until chapter 7. The Sermon on the Mount begins chapter 5. Before He got to the "strait gate," He spoke about:

The Beatitudes

You are the salt of the earth

You are the light of the world

Righteousness needing to surpass that of the Pharisees and teachers of the Law

Sin comes from the heart

Eye for an eye

Love your enemies

Etc.

These are all commands of doing.

Again, by "doing," I am speaking of day by day "how to live".

The "strait gate" (Matt. 7:13) is given on the heals of: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matt. 7:12)

So I do not understand why you call the "strait gate" His first teaching?

Again, bad choice of words, I should have said disciples rather than believers. It again seems that hairs are split as to exactly who the Lord was speaking, although they did believe in Jesus, and were "justified by faith," at that time. And, this first teaching again was given to the disciples, not the multitudes, by the context of the Scripture, as He took the disciples apart and opened His and taught them saying... The non believer had, and has no more possibility of following the Word of the Lord than a man in the moon.

We could split hairs over what is meant by "disciples." He had more "disciples" than the 12. Note John 6:66 states, "many of his disciples went back," and the next verse mentions Jesus turning to "the Twelve."

Also, Jesus appeared on the Road to Emmaus to two unnamed disciples (not a part of the Twelve).

The Jews of Jesus' day had so misunderstood prophetic things that they looked over a "coming of the Lord" and was looking for a different set of events to take place. I can't understand why it should be beyond the pale that it could be happening again, if things occur more than once. Which, by the way, I am in agreement that some certain things do repeat.

Oh, I am sure it is happening again - that's why there are umpteen dozen interpretations of these prophecies.

When Jesus was born, only two people are recorded as having been given revelation from the Lord on the birth of the Messiah - Simeon and Anna (Anna was a prophetess living in the Temple). The Magi followed astrology, but it is unknown if or how much they correlated the king born with the Jewish Messiah. The shepherds had an angelic visitation.

When Jesus became known to the people, the first person to know Him for who He is was John the Baptist, but even he had a failed understanding (which became apparent when he was in prison and asked his disciples to ask Jesus if He really is the One). And even though Jesus' disciples believed Him, none of them understood Him to be Messiah ben Joseph and what that entailed - even though He told them point blank.

So, why should I believe you have the handle on truth that no one else does?

[sdktlk]

I got nothing on the cup , but have always associated hand with ministry.

There is much said in Scripture about a "cup." But as it is a "golden cup" which, as you said, points to the Person and Nature of God we see the Lord Jesus referring to a cup, "and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Mat 26:39) And again the Lord said to the disciples, with respect to a cup, "can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized." (Mar 10:38b-39)

The cup the Lord is referring to here is that which contains the will of God for His life. And He told the disciples they too would drink of that same cup, which was the will of God for the disciples lives. By this we can see that a "golden cup" should contain the will of God for the believers life, that is it should contain "the water of life." (Rev 22:17) However, the "golden cup" in the hand of this woman does not contain "the water of life" it is full of "abominations and filthiness of her fornication." There is death in her cup.

The "hand" does signify ministry along with fellowship, blessing, safety, love, etc. This hand should be "holding forth the Word of Life" (Php 2:16,) but we see it is not.

The appearance of this woman does not seem to match up with her being anything that could be classified as a secular government. She is however joined together with a "scarlet colored beast." Any thoughts anyone?

I see what you mean about the cup. Looks like that would be an interesting study in itself. As for the beast I think it is all the unsaved peoples of the earth as in Rev17:15. Though could be wrong as I have not put a lot of study into it. I do see the woman as the corrupt religious system of the world though and can see why God says "Come out of her ,my people....".

If there is any "rule" to interpreting symbolic prophecy then we would have to understand, from the four "beasts" that rose up out of the sea in the Book of Daniel, that the "beast" this woman abides upon here has to be representative of secular, that is worldly government. So, if that is the case then we have a picture of some "woman" who is coupled with a "beast," so the "woman" cannot, in and of herself, be any particular country or nation, as she is riding upon secular government." We, as believers, cannot come out of the entire world so the question remains who is the "her" that we are commanded to "come out of?"

Rev 17;18

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

She is a city.

How is the scripture spells it out so clearly but yet there are those who can not endure sound doctrin?

Not even a verse as simple as this?

Yes, she is a city. But I guess we would need to understand the Greek word polis, interpreted city. It means a town (properly with walls, of greater or lesser size):- city. Therefore, she is a city, a town, which has walls. We then need to understand what does that mean before the Lord.

[sdktlk]

In order to "do" something we first have to learn to sit.

by "doing," I am speaking of day by day "how to live".

To just do something can get us in trouble as it did the Apostle Paul immediately after his conversion and caused him to understand that he first had to learn how to sit, before he could stand and then walk out that which the Lord had apprehended him to do.

What did Paul do that got him into trouble after his conversion? Being blinded was a part of what got him converted.

His stillness was because he was reconnecting with God and getting to know Jesus.

We are instructed by the Lord, in His FIRST teaching, to enter in through the strait gate, does it not behove us to understand clearly what He meant by that, as it would seem to carry great weight.

In Matthew, His very first teaching is: "Repent : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

The teaching on the strait gate is not found until chapter 7. The Sermon on the Mount begins chapter 5. Before He got to the "strait gate," He spoke about:

The Beatitudes

You are the salt of the earth

You are the light of the world

Righteousness needing to surpass that of the Pharisees and teachers of the Law

Sin comes from the heart

Eye for an eye

Love your enemies

Etc.

These are all commands of doing.

Again, by "doing," I am speaking of day by day "how to live".

The "strait gate" (Matt. 7:13) is given on the heals of: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matt. 7:12)

So I do not understand why you call the "strait gate" His first teaching?

Again, bad choice of words, I should have said disciples rather than believers. It again seems that hairs are split as to exactly who the Lord was speaking, although they did believe in Jesus, and were "justified by faith," at that time. And, this first teaching again was given to the disciples, not the multitudes, by the context of the Scripture, as He took the disciples apart and opened His and taught them saying... The non believer had, and has no more possibility of following the Word of the Lord than a man in the moon.

We could split hairs over what is meant by "disciples." He had more "disciples" than the 12. Note John 6:66 states, "many of his disciples went back," and the next verse mentions Jesus turning to "the Twelve."

Also, Jesus appeared on the Road to Emmaus to two unnamed disciples (not a part of the Twelve).

The Jews of Jesus' day had so misunderstood prophetic things that they looked over a "coming of the Lord" and was looking for a different set of events to take place. I can't understand why it should be beyond the pale that it could be happening again, if things occur more than once. Which, by the way, I am in agreement that some certain things do repeat.

Oh, I am sure it is happening again - that's why there are umpteen dozen interpretations of these prophecies.

When Jesus was born, only two people are recorded as having been given revelation from the Lord on the birth of the Messiah - Simeon and Anna (Anna was a prophetess living in the Temple). The Magi followed astrology, but it is unknown if or how much they correlated the king born with the Jewish Messiah. The shepherds had an angelic visitation.

When Jesus became known to the people, the first person to know Him for who He is was John the Baptist, but even he had a failed understanding (which became apparent when he was in prison and asked his disciples to ask Jesus if He really is the One). And even though Jesus' disciples believed Him, none of them understood Him to be Messiah ben Joseph and what that entailed - even though He told them point blank.

So, why should I believe you have the handle on truth that no one else does?

Sister, I did not say Apostle's, the Scripture says disciples. And all of Matthew 5, 6 & 7 is the first time the Lord taught the disciples. The "strait gate" is part of that teaching. ???

[nebula]

Sister, I did not say Apostle's, the Scripture says disciples. And all of Matthew 5, 6 & 7 is the first time the Lord taught the disciples. The "strait gate" is part of that teaching. ???

Yes, it is a part, but your explanation states it is "first".

What I see is a verse being presented in isolation, otherwise referred to as "taken out of context."

The entire Sermon on the Mount was about every day living - living a righteous life, walking in the ways of the Lord.

But with regards to Mystery Babylon, the call for His people to come out is given just before her destruction. So whether she is America, as some claim, or the RCC, as some claim, or all Christian denominaltionalism, or anything else - the call to leave will come when it is time to come.

[sdktlk]

Sister, I did not say Apostle's, the Scripture says disciples. And all of Matthew 5, 6 & 7 is the first time the Lord taught the disciples. The "strait gate" is part of that teaching. ???

Yes, it is a part, but your explanation states it is "first".

What I see is a verse being presented in isolation, otherwise referred to as "taken out of context."

The entire Sermon on the Mount was about every day living - living a righteous life, walking in the ways of the Lord.

But with regards to Mystery Babylon, the call for His people to come out is given just before her destruction. So whether she is America, as some claim, or the RCC, as some claim, or all Christian denominaltionalism, or anything else - the call to leave will come when it is time to come.

It is the key to being able to walk out the teachings the Lord puts forth in those chapters of Matthew, and it is the key to knowing false teachers and false prophets, for if they have not entered in at the strait gate the fruit they "produce" will be false.

But, as this is a prophecy string it would probably be best to take up the Sermon on the Mount in some other venue, don't you think?

And with respect to Babylon, it seems that we are unable to discover any truth's with respect to who are what she is. For, it appears, we have been instructed by someone(s) that The Book of Revelation is all future and, as of yet, we just cannot know. Therefore, if the call were to be coming even now, it seems as if we could not hear the Voice of God, all we would hear is the sound of thunder. (ref: Jn 12:29)

[other one]

Most of us don't do games....