Purgatory

[BobTriez]

Weak argument...

The Trinity ( or concept of ) is Biblical, purgatory is not ( in any way, shape or form ).

Then how do you explain the verses that I posted.

Do you believe that when you die you will have your personal judgement? How can this be in Heaven if your filthy deeds will be judged, as the Bible clearly states that nothing unclean can be in Heaven?

Do you believe that when you die, you are automatically made Holy and so skip your personal judgement?

Nice try....I'm not Catholic and never will be. Purgatory is a lie from the devil to take Christ's sacrifice and cheapen it. My absolution is in His righteousness alone. If purgatory was required to make us holy, we'd be in it for eternity....wait, that's called HELL.

Nope...not gonna even argue with a heresy such as purgatory....Jesus is my All in all. He's altogether worthy :il: I do love Him so.

God bless,

Bob

[ServingHim]

Weak argument...

The Trinity ( or concept of ) is Biblical, purgatory is not ( in any way, shape or form ).

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

[ServingHim]

All Christians agree that we won

[Guest Called]

All Christians agree that we won

[Guest LCPGUY]

It is not necessary to ask for forgivness of sins since they have already been forgiven by the finished work of Christ on the cross. It is redundant. Why would someone ask for something they already have?

But... we do need to confess our sins and repent of them if we want to be in fellowship with the Lord.

You lost me John...............

As for purgatory, I've posted this before, but I post it again as it's a REALLY good article. Here's EVERYTHING the Bible says about purgatory.

Have a read....

Questions ?

God bless,

Bob

Hmmmm... sorry Bob, but I don

[Paul]

if a soul must be cleansed, even after it has been forgiven, then why did Jesus tell the thief on the Cross, that, THIS DAY, you will be with me in paradise? God Bless

[Guest shiloh357]

Nice try....I'm not Catholic and never will be. Purgatory is a lie from the devil to take Christ's sacrifice and cheapen it. My absolution is in His righteousness alone. If purgatory was required to make us holy, we'd be in it for eternity....wait, that's called HELL.

Nope...not gonna even argue with a heresy such as purgatory....Jesus is my All in all. He's altogether worthy :il: I do love Him so.

God bless,

Bob

Right On, Bob!! The Catholics can have the heresy of purgatory... I'll take Jesus instead.

[ServingHim]

26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. Matt 5:26 . . . any idea what this might mean in this parable? Never GET OUT 'til the LAST PENNY HAS BEEN PAID'!

And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile. 1 Peter 1:17

14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. 2 Cor 11:14-15

24 The sins of some men are conspicuous, pointing to judgment, but the sins of others appear later. 25 So also good deeds are conspicuous; and even when they are not, they cannot remain hidden. 1 Tim 5:24-25

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 1 Cor 3:10-15

[ServingHim]

The Catholics can have the heresy of purgatory... I'll take Jesus instead.

you're of course welcome to believe that purgatory is only a 'man-made' doctrine, but you might be surprised in your end when you are there...being 'purged' of the remaining sins in your life that weren't paid for (see above verses that I just posted)...YOU MIGHT read HERE for an EVANGELICAL Protestant Minister turned Catholic's VIEWPOINT on Purgatory! In fact, he was a prominent persecuter of the Catholic faith until one day when he realized the HE WAS WRONG...fascinating!

[Guest shiloh357]

The Catholics can have the heresy of purgatory...  I'll take Jesus instead.

you're of course welcome to believe that purgatory is only a 'man-made' doctrine, but you might be surprised in your end when you are there...being 'purged' of the remaining sins in your life that weren't paid for (see above verses that I just posted)...YOU MIGHT read HERE for an EVANGELICAL Protestant Minister turned Catholic's VIEWPOINT on Purgatory! In fact, he was a prominent persecuter of the Catholic faith until one day when he realized the HE WAS WRONG...fascinating!

All of sin has been payed for. Jesus said "It is finished." That means in Greek, "Paid in Full." If all sin has not been payed for, then Jesus was wasting His time on the cross.

You may the one who is surprised in the end when you stand before the Lord and He says, "Depart from me, for I never knew you."