The Great Apostacy - Lost Forever

[MelodyCat]

I am not a fan of Joseph Chambers and I am not commenting on his article, instead I want to talk about what is an Apostate. Are there Apostate Ministers and what does the Bible say about their salvation.

First of all no one can argue against God's Word and it is clear their are False Teachers and False Prophets. Each Christian must be aware of this and discern. I will choose the book of Jude, but there are many other scriptures that tell us there are false Teachers and Preachers amongst us.

JUDE 1:1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ:

JUDE 1:2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

JUDE 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

JUDE 1:5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

JUDE 1:8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.

JUDE 1:11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

JUDE 1:12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

JUDE 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

JUDE 1:17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

There is no doubt there are Apostate Preachers. So what is the problem? Why do people say we are not to discern who is or is not a False Shepherd when Jesus and the Apostles have taken the time to WARN us and to tell us to be aware and on our guard? It is obvious though that these Apostates have attracted God's judgement and wrath. Obviously they will not be going to heaven.

Meanwhile can a person who once knew Gods Word but falls away come back to repentance? The scripture below says NO

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Obviously if a Preacher or Teacher started out with a true understanding of God's Word and then falls away the Bible tells us there is no way back for these people. Do not be deceived a Good Teacher that turns Bad is not able to come back they have been as the Bible puts it elsewhere given over to their delusion and their thinking becomes darkened. They are no longer led by the Holy Spirit and should not be trusted to be teaching God's Truth.

The Bible does tell us there are Apostates we need to be on our guard against and that those who were once Enlightened, hwo have tasted the Heavenly Gift & shared in the Holy Spirit (no doubt a Saved Believer) can FALL AWAY and they cannot be brought back.

DANGER! DANGER! DANGER WILL ROBERTSON!

We don't have a personal Robot able to warn us when we encounter Apostates but we do have the Bible and we have been Warned.

MT 24:4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.

RO 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

TIT 1:10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13 This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

2JN 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Edited March 20, 2011 by MelodyCat

[enoob57]

OOOOOH lost in space .... But it was Will Robinson... Love Steven

[Guest]

Israel is apostate from God, has been for over 2000 years. Yet they have always been accepted back when they have repented and left their idolatry. They have been estranged from their Father, but they have always been His children, and God says they always will be.

What you described isn't apostasy but backslidding. Most Christian's hold to the view that apostasy has all to do with the church, and that it's a defection from the truth. That perception comes from the influence the RCC had on many Protestant's s during and since the reformation. The idea of a defection from truth is a definition that only Christian's adhere to but that's not the correct definition.

The reason people assume the apostasia applies to the church is because that's what they've been taught, and falling away is a poor interpretation of the word and 2 Thess. 2 is the only place the word forsake or 'apostasia' is interpreted "falling away".

It comes from the root word meaning a divorce. It means to defect or to abandon and to go from one thing to another.

Apoostasy is not being lukewarm or backsliden. It actually has nothing to do with spiritual condition of a church or lack of devotion of an individual. It is not false doctrine or heresy and it will have nothing to do with the endtime church. The entire chapter of 2 Thes. 2 is devoted to the revelation of the man of sin before the Day of Christ. There is no scripture that implies that the church will supposedly "apostasize" from christianity to the religion of the beast and welcome the man of sin. I believe that the the "apostasy" prophecied in 2 Thes 2:3 is now taking place in the Arab world.

For a christian to be an apostate, he must renounce his religion, disolve his union with God, and accept another religion...or no religion at all. In 2 Thes. 2, the falling away has all to do with the man of sin, not the church! I think it's a shame that this 'falling away' has been attributed to the church. But that's what we've all been taught! Rome's disgraceful past (not today) has influenced the interpretation of the word apostasia as being a "defection from truth" rather than a desertion or abandonment of a post or position in life.

Entire kingdoms have gone into apostasy when it's ruler or king called for one. And it was always to change the "national religion."

This is what Bakers Dictionary of Theology has to say's this about apostasy.

"A word of increasing interest found twice in the NT. (Acts 21:21; 2Thes. 2:3 It comes from the Greek apostasia a late form of apostasis, originally to desert a post or station in life. It is used of Plutarch of political revolt and is found in the OT in the sense of revolt against the Lord. (Josh. 22:22) Antiochus Epiphanes enforced an apostasia from Judaism to Hellenism (1 Macc 2:15)

In the AV it is translated "falling away" in relation to the man of sin or antichrist. In this sense the thought is of religious revolt. Cremer states that apostasia is used in the absolute sense of "passing over to unbelief," thus a dissolution of the "union of God subsisting through Christ." Amdt adds rebellion or abandonment in the religious sense. On the nature of apostasy there are lengthy articles in both the JewEnc and the CE developing an extensive doctrine of apostasy.

In the NT. 2 Thes 2:3 is part of a prophetic passage of apocalyptic character. The falling away invites conjecture about whom and from what. The event seems future and thus related to antichrist. The implication is that the apostates will welcome the man of sin."

______________________________

The rebellion or revolt that's taking place in the Arab world could very well be the apostasy because the word can mean a political or religious revolt. (Islam is a religion with a political ideology) This apostasy will result in a power vacumn in the Arab world creating the perfect conditions for the revelation of the man of sin. The common people in the Arab world want political and religious unification. They want one currency and less borders. Sound familiar?

The Islamic anti-christ will not only politically unite the region, he will also unite the Shia and Sunni sects of Islam...the two horned beast.

No, Israel and Judah turned their backs on God, and turned to the idolatry and worshiping of the same gods as the gentiles all around them. They had idols on every high place, even sacrificed their children to these "gods." They worshiped the gods of Egypt when they were slaves there. And they have been in that same idolatrous condition ever since. That, my friend, is not backsliding. It is apostasy, just as many of the "christian" churches and their adherents have and are doing in this age. And their greatest apostasy will be when they accept the anti-christ as the messiah.

But, let us not be diverted from the original intent of this topic.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Parker1

[Guest borderline]

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Edited July 16, 2012 by borderline

[MorningGlory]

OOOOOH lost in space .... But it was Will Robinson... Love Steven

I looked that up....and you're right, Steven! Wow, that show was on in the sixties!

[Guest borderline]

gf

Edited July 16, 2012 by borderline

[enoob57]

OOOOOH lost in space .... But it was Will Robinson... Love Steven

I looked that up....and you're right, Steven! Wow, that show was on in the sixties!

Yeah! Dirt and I get together every afternoon and discuss our mutual histories... dirt always seems to win but realizes I am gaining on my end... Love Steven

[MelodyCat]

In response to MelodyCat.

An apostate isn't a false teacher or false prophet, and it doesn't imply backslidding or heresy.

True enough the difference between a False Teacher/Prophey who is Apostate and one who isn't is that the Apostate had a faith in the first place.

Sorry I was thinking of those who had a faith and has fallen away and still teaching and preaching the Word of God.

I didn't actually write that in my post. I was thinking that but it didn't get to my fingers and through the keyboard. I'm doing that more and more these days. Thinking something but not making sure I had communicated it with everything else I have said. My apologies.

People be nice to Old people because you are going to get old too one day (if the rapture and tribulation don't come too soon for your aging). For me it is too late I'm already there and now I understand why my grandparents often forgot where they left things.

There are False teachers and preachers who are Apostate and there is no hope for them coming back to Repentance. Sad but true. That is what we are told. Best not to fall away.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I don't believe the falling away mentioned in 2 Thes. 2 is hinting at christians or the church falling away. Instead, it's in connection with the man of sin or son of perdition. Moses prophesied that a great prophet would come long after him. We know that Christ was the fulfillment of that prophecy. However, when that great prophet came, the Jews rejected him, just as Christ prophesied they would. Furthermore, Christ also prophesied that they (jews) would later receive someone (false messiah) that would come in his own name. I believe this is the great falling away that Paul was referring to. Then in the middle of the seven year covenant, the man of sin will break his covenant and claim to be God, himself.

Deuteronomy 18:15

"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him."

John 5:43-47

"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

[44] How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

[45] Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

[46] For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

[47] But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4)Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

[Guest]

You said,

And their greatest apostasy will be when they accept the anti-christ as the messiah.

What verse do you have to support the idea that the church or Israel will accept the anti-christ as messiah?

I was speaking of the Jews accepting him as their messiah, based partly upon John 5:40-43; "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father