The Christian and alcohol...freedom or bondage?

[enoob57]

You don't know much about the Middle East and its customs, DO you Steven? Dancing would merely have been to move around in a circle, not dancing as we know it in Western terms. Also, I wrote that I wouldn't doubt it. That doesn't mean that it did happen, only that I see the possibility there. Christ brought freedom, not bondage to the Law, or to man made religion. If your faith doesn't permit you alcohol, all well and good, but don't impose your conscience on other people.

The following is from a scholarly study on life in ancient Israel......from http:\\truelightministries.org

4. Usually it was the women who danced. This was not always the case in the Old Testament, but it was usually so. It was so as Saul and David returned from battle after Goliath was slain, as we read in 1 Samuel 18. It was so as Jephthah returned from victory over the Ammonites, as we read in Judges 11. It was so after the Red Sea crossing, as we read from Exodus 15. And it was the women who danced at the festival of Shiloh, as we read from Judges 21.

5. Men occasionally danced. David danced before the ark, as we read in 1 Chronicles 15. The prophets of the false god Baal danced, as we read in 1 Kings 18. Those two instances are certain. Also, it might be reasonably inferred that men were among the Israelite dancers at Mount Sinai. The Bible says, "When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned" (Exodus 32:19).

As I mentioned earlier, there is some dispute whether Jeremiah prophesied that men would dance with women at the return of Israel from bondage. Let me quote it again: "Then maidens will dance and be glad, young men and old as well" (Jeremiah 31:13). Some read that as the maidens, the young men and the old men all dancing together. However, the Scripture does not necessarily say that. Contrariwise, the dancing of women and men in one another's presence is a violation of the Jews' beliefs about dancing: "Dances by men and women combined are never permitted," states The Concise Encyclopedia of Jewish Music. "When men danced, it was in companies separate from the women," states Manner and Customs of the Bible. "The sexes never intermingled in it," states The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary in an entry on Jewish dancing.

As we have seen, there is no clearly substantiated Old Testament reference in a positive context to a mixed congregation in which both men and women danced in one another's presence, although women danced in the presence of men on some occasions as expressions of joy and celebration. There are two occasions in the Old Testament upon which women danced in public in honor of men, not of God. Those occasions are before Saul and David, and also before Jephthah.

So in the quote from Jeremiah, it is possible but not provable that the intention was that men and women would dance together. However, at least four major translations render it as the women dancing while the men make merry, rejoice, or be happy. There is a substantial question whether the prophet was saying that the men would dance.

In light of the translational disagreements over Jeremiah 31:13, my conclusion concerning men dancing in the Old Testament is that there are only two instances for certain, or at the most three. One is King David before the ark proceeding down the city streets. The other certain one is the prophets of the pagan god Baal. A third probable instance of men dancing was before the calf idol at Mount Sinai. Of these instances of men dancing, two of the three are associated with idolatrous worship.

I would like to dance right on out of here as I dance around this subject I am a wall flower with my feet

and a 1 ... 2... 3 and skip hop 1... 2... 3 spin skip hop 1...2...3 turn and bow turn and skip hop 1... 2.. 3... I may be getting the hang of this .... Love Steven

[enoob57]

Listen to, and obey, His Spirit in you. He will never lead you down the wrong road.

Or grassy pathways.... Ps. 1 all

John 10:27-28

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

NKJV

Love Steven

[sheya joie]

Actually, they have found health benefits with one glass of red wine a day.

But I don't drink alcohol.

reason?

I can't stand the taste of it!

Ah, neb, sounds like me. I have come to believe, from reading the Scriptures, that drinking of itself is not sin, as opposed to drunkenness, which is sin. But I don't drink alcohol either.

I can't stand the smell of it! The closer it gets to my nose, the more it makes me feel like I'm gonna throw up.

You and me, sis...

[Smalcald]

3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles

[j102]

I've not seen this topic since I've come here, so I've decided to start it. Should Christian believers enjoy alcoholic beverages? For me, it's a case of I can if I like, but I rarely like. Maybe 2-3 times a year I will have a good quality beer. I never drink hard liquor at all. I haven't had wine in ages. I'm fortunate that my physical make-up allows me to handle alcohol. Not every person can. Not only that, not every Believer's conscience or teaching will allow them to partake of alcohol. I believe that alcohol is something that each Believer must decide for themselves by the Spirit's leading and also by what they know about themselves and their background.

It disturbs me that so many denominations have the audacity to teach that the wine Jesus drank was nothing more than grape juice. The Greek texts clearly state that Jesus drank oinos, which is wine. While this may seem insignificant, its significance becomes clear when such groups teach that drinking of alcohol is a sin. They inadvertently teach that the Son of God was a sinner. If what Jesus drank was grape juice, then why would the religious authorities accuse Him of being a winebibber (Gr: oinopotes, someone given to wine, a wino)? You can't get crocked on grape juice.

Alcohol can be used responsibly and sensibly, contrary to much evangelical teaching. Just because a Believer has the occasional drink, that doesn't mean that they will become an alcoholic, nor does it make such a person "a sinner". There IS freedom in Christ. What WE have to do is use that freedom to uplift Christ. Likewise, not every unbeliever who drinks alcohol is wicked. It becomes wicked and sinful when one abuses alcohol by overindulgence. Christians need to realize this distinction when dealing with people who enjoy alcohol on occasion, whether they be Believers or unbelievers.

At what point is the Christian considered to have overindulged?

I enjoy a drink but find my mind loses clarity after very little. Is the point where you don't think clearly the limit?

i think the point of overindulgence is when the question 1st pops into your mind "did i have too much?"

[2Joyful]

I do not drink....NOW!! But I use to love my Hennessey on the rocks.

I believe that the problem lays in the brewing for beer... and whatever its called in wine making.. I can't place my life on it...but the wine Jesus made was drank the same day and He knows His folks...most of us never know how to stop at a good thing. But now a days beer has to brew for long periods of time. My take, the problem with wine occurs with the ferment process that makes it stronger and the person who drinks and won't stop until it consumes them.

[Bold Believer]

I do not drink....NOW!! But I use to love my Hennessey on the rocks.

I believe that the problem lays in the brewing for beer... and whatever its called in wine making.. I can't place my life on it...but the wine Jesus made was drank the same day and He knows His folks...most of us never know how to stop at a good thing. But now a days beer has to brew for long periods of time. My take, the problem with wine occurs with the ferment process that makes it stronger and the person who drinks and won't stop until it consumes them.

How is it then that one person can drink sensibly and responsibly, while another sniffs a bottle cap and becomes a lush? I am of the opinion that physical makeup and family factors along with social mores affect whether a person can drink sensibly and responsibly or not, which is why I think Scripture teaches against drunkenness and not occasional consumption.

[xequedox]

Actually, they have found health benefits with one glass of red wine a day.

But I don't drink alcohol.

reason?

I can't stand the taste of it!

Health benifits

1 Timothy 5:23 (New King James Version)

²³ No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.

I refrain from it because of past issues with alcohol.

Well there ya go

[nebula]

Actually, they have found health benefits with one glass of red wine a day.

But I don't drink alcohol.

reason?

I can't stand the taste of it!

Ah, neb, sounds like me. I have come to believe, from reading the Scriptures, that drinking of itself is not sin, as opposed to drunkenness, which is sin. But I don't drink alcohol either.

I can't stand the smell of it! The closer it gets to my nose, the more it makes me feel like I'm gonna throw up.

You and me, sis...

[2Joyful]

I do not drink....NOW!! But I use to love my Hennessey on the rocks.

I believe that the problem lays in the brewing for beer... and whatever its called in wine making.. I can't place my life on it...but the wine Jesus made was drank the same day and He knows His folks...most of us never know how to stop at a good thing. But now a days beer has to brew for long periods of time. My take, the problem with wine occurs with the ferment process that makes it stronger and the person who drinks and won't stop until it consumes them.

How is it then that one person can drink sensibly and responsibly, while another sniffs a bottle cap and becomes a lush? I am of the opinion that physical makeup and family factors along with social mores affect whether a person can drink sensibly and responsibly or not, which is why I think Scripture teaches against drunkenness and not occasional consumption.

First off, I never said it was or wasn't a sin to drink....And, secondly of course the facts that you shared can work against the person and add to the problem. But as I stated, I believe the process in which alcoholic drinks is made today by man are far, very far from what Jesus produced and He isn't happy how people has taken such a gift and turned it into a product that is tempting and in tricing many as well as becoming a stronghold for others.