Can Love exist with out choice?

[childeye]

I think, as SDGS pointed out that perhaps our conflict lies in the defiinition of the word Love.

The Greeks had 4 words for love, so lets go with that, this is taken yes from wikipedia, but I since I know the book it is speaking of well I know that its accurate enough.

This is from the book "The Four Loves" by C.S. Lewis.

Storge - Affection

Affection (storge, στοργή)

is fondness through familiarity, especially between family members or people who have otherwise found themselves together by chance. It is described as the most natural, emotive, and widely diffused of loves: natural in that it is present without coercion; emotive because it is the result of fondness due to familiarity; and most widely diffused because it pays the least attention to those characteristics deemed "valuable" or worthy of love and, as a result, is able to transcend most discriminating factors. Ironically, its strength is also what makes it vulnerable. Affection has the appearance of being "built-in" or "ready made", says Lewis, and as a result people come to expect, even to demand, its presence

[childeye]

the word pool has two meanings, and outside of context you can make it mean whatever you want. Such as a Pool table or a pool of water.

You claim people are playing semantics and yet, you are the one taking words out of the context of the text.

I don't like semantics. It is a tool of the devil. It is no ones fault they exist. If I were deliberately trying to take words out of context so as to escape any definitive conviction, this would be guile. I don't believe that of you, and I hope you don't believe that of me. As for scripture, I didn't write it, I'm simply agreeing with it.

Edited April 2, 2011 by childeye

[Believer112]

If you will only but see that it is God that keeps you from being without goodness and makes you whole, not like a robot but as a vessel of spirit, you will not consider there is a choice. You will pray He not leave you.

Hebrews 13:5

Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said,

[Guest]

True Love is eternal.

True love may be eternal but God gave us the ability to choose whether we want to embrace it or not.

It's Satan who gave us the choice, not God, for Satan is the Father of sin and instigated disobedience. God said to love Him with all our hearts minds and souls, Satan says we don't have to. The choice put before men is about who you are going to trust. Who will be your master? God who says He is all there is, or Satan who says God is a liar. You will consider it your freedom to decide. I will contend that we are controlled by either Truth or lies.

A

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

Second Look

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

Is Often A Wise Look

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

I Find

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

See

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

Yes?

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Isaiah 6:8]

How do you know you aren't the one in error?

First of all your logic is clearly flawed. Its circular.

Here is your logic.

1. We have a choice.

2.God made our choice clear

3.Because it is clear it is inevitable

4.Because it is inevitable We have no choice

5.But Satan gives us a choice

1. We have a choice.

2.God made our choice clear

3.Because it is clear it is inevitable

4.Because it is inevitable We have no choice

5.But Satan gives us a choice

See choice 1 again.

Sorry does not compute

You also have made blanket statements with out backing. Also you have claimed that the Bible says things that do not exist in the Bible.. For instance the statement

God's reason is to not allow a man to boast saying, "I chose it of my own freewill"

This is not in the bible. Also you state

It's Satan who gave us the choice, not God, for Satan is the Father of sin and instigated disobedience. God said to love Him with all our hearts minds and souls, Satan says we don't have to. The choice put before men is about who you are going to trust. Who will be your master? God who says He is all there is, or Satan who says God is a liar. You will consider it your freedom to decide. I will contend that we are controlled by either Truth or lies.

This brings us back to the line that started this whole thing. God put the tree in the garden. Satan did not. There for GOD gave us the choice. Satan was only the used car salesmen, and sold us the line of goods that God lied, and that the wisdom we would gain would be worth while The Choice was still Adams, that choice would not have been there with out the tree, that GOD put int he garden.

]

Why not give God the absolute power to do what He wills with men? I find nothing unbiblical to taking a back seat to God. Why must you be His equal to take Him or leave Him? He doesn't do that to you. He loves us when we were yet dead in our sins, stinky, ugly, and unworthy.

ah this looks so nice on the surface. I agree that he loves us, when we were yet dead in our sins. But this does not force us to love him. Us having a choice does in no way make us equal to him in his power or nature. It simply gives us the choice to accept him or not. Again you are adding concepts that don't exist. Simply having a choice does not make you equal to a person. If a person hold a gun to your head and tells you make a choice, coffee or tea this gives you a choice not a gun. It does not make you equal to the man with the gun, its a choice.

I hate semantics. This analogy of physical attraction is not a good comparison to that Love that is empathy for the poor. Of course you can say no to God. How many times before God removes Himself so that you no longer can?

You say this but you play the game. You have taken my words and read into what I was saying. Then by what you felt I said is what you responded to, not to what I actually said. This is playing semantics. As I show below. Also playing semantics is saying one thing while meaning another, as when said you did not understand something I posted. when in truth, it was not a lack of understanding, but a lack of agreement.

Please forgive me when I say, stop talking this way. I hope I can be frank with you. This is what I hear you saying. You Love your wife and because you don't want to hurt her, you stay with her. This is God , not you. That's why the devil is able to tempt you. Start thanking God for His Love in you, instead of counting it your graciousness towards your wife that you're not with someone else. It's condescending to her and you're demeaning yourself in the process. Believe me, it is Satan that says it's our choice.

I am frank you are frank, no worries. Just to let you know I am not mad at you but I feel you are not only wrong in what you belive but you are causing others to stray.

This is a good example, you took what I said wildly out of context, and told me what you choose to hear not what I said! I did not say I was tempted by other women. What I said was in bold so that you might understand it.

You see if love was not a choice then I would fall in love with every pretty girl that caught my fancy

You see you said that love is not a choice. That means that it overwhelms your decision making process and you cannot resist this. I hear this all the time in the world, on TV and in real life. "Its not my fault, we fell in love with each other. Sorry dear but I am leaving you for her" Yes your words ring hollow.

I Love my wife not only because I don't wan to hurt her but because I choose to, and because I am commanded to See Ephesians 5:25.

If you will only but see that it is God that keeps you from being without goodness and makes you whole, not like a robot but as a vessel of spirit, you will not consider there is a choice. You will pray He not leave you.

No, I will not see that which is not there. Yes the more time you spend with him, the more like him you become and the less likely you will fall. But from what you are saying that God keeps us from sinning. No he gives us the way out from sin, but does not stop us from sinning.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (New King James Version)

13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

You are comparing romance with Godly Love, they of course are not the same. One is hormonal, the other spiritual. You say sin is so much more fun, an illusion, a deception. Like a new toy, such things lose their luster. How do you fall out of Love with God? Look at Job. If anyone had reason to denounce God, certainly he did, but yet he said what was undeniable according to the proper esteem of God. The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. Naked I came into this world and naked I shall leave. This whole world is geared to deceive men into giving up on Love and following our flesh. You must not view this as a choice but as Satan trying to get you to trade in your gold for a shined up piece of dung.

They are no the same, but romance is simply a foreshadowing and example of what God's love is like. Why else would we have the Song of Solomon in the Bible? Which can be taken as between man and God or man and women. Yes earthly romance is no were near the level of Gods love but they are related.

I will give you one point. Love is not a choice. It is a Command. We can choose to obey this command or disobey the command. But that is our choice.

Matthew 22:34-46 (New King James Version)

The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"

37 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

This is clear about the Love of God, then what about your enemies?

Matthew 5:43-48 (New King James Version)

Love Your Enemies

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Again ordered to love them. but we have a choice to obey or not. No feelings come into play.

Also about husbands and wives, you see again there is a link to Romance and God.

Ephesians 5:25-33 (New King James Version)

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,of His flesh and of His bones. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

You see he speaks of BOTH Christ and the Church, AND Husbands and wives.

So I'll Cede you the point of we have no choice, we have an order. But we do have a choice weather to obey that order or not. But not in the way you have reported, where by no will of our own do we love.

[Isaiah 6:8]

I don't like semantics. It is a tool of the devil. It is no ones fault they exist. If I were deliberately trying to take words out of context so as to escape any definitive conviction, this would be guile. I don't believe that of you, and I hope you don't believe that of me. As for scripture, I didn't write it, I'm simply agreeing with it.

Yes you have, if you had not it would not have got my attention. See my post just above.

[Littlelambseativy]

If the Potter uses a certain clay to make a pot, can the pot then decide that it wants to be bone china? God created Satan knowing what Satan would be like, envious. God also created man to love Him. He permitted Satan to test Adam and Adam failed. God came first, He is the potter. He knew what Satan would choose and do to God's creation yet He permitted it. Satan is the father of evil.

I like your post, it contains wisdom. Forgive my little criticism concerning "testing Adam". I do believe that mankind was beguiled. I say this because Satan did test Job, but Job did not fail. Adam was deceived because he was gullible in his innocence. Upon believing this, one can truly forgive from the heart saying, "They know not what they do". Other than that, I agree that God knew what Satan would do and permitted it. The mistake for Adam was not that he disobeyed God but that he did not trust his maker over Satan. This preceded his disobedience. Satan used post hypnotic suggestion by planting a corruptible image of God in the mind of the innocent, who knew nothing of guile.

Satan did not deceive Adam he deceived Eve and just like a man Adam followed his wife's seduction and did not listen to the words of God. Is that not what we do? There are so many times when Satan uses one human to tempt another, even though man knows better. Look at the some of the current so called great men of God who have succumbed to the lusts of the world and man and have left the Word that they have been preaching. We are no different than Adam. We the pot created to be used by our Potter have chosen to try to be what we are not meant to be and thus succumbed to the temptation. Lust sadly plays a great role. We all have free will to choose to succumb to the lust of the world or as God to help us and give us the strength to turn away. Adam should have rebuked Eve as the head of the couple. He failed in his position.

[Isaiah 6:8]

If the Potter uses a certain clay to make a pot, can the pot then decide that it wants to be bone china? God created Satan knowing what Satan would be like, envious. God also created man to love Him. He permitted Satan to test Adam and Adam failed. God came first, He is the potter. He knew what Satan would choose and do to God's creation yet He permitted it. Satan is the father of evil.

I like your post, it contains wisdom. Forgive my little criticism concerning "testing Adam". I do believe that mankind was beguiled. I say this because Satan did test Job, but Job did not fail. Adam was deceived because he was gullible in his innocence. Upon believing this, one can truly forgive from the heart saying, "They know not what they do". Other than that, I agree that God knew what Satan would do and permitted it. The mistake for Adam was not that he disobeyed God but that he did not trust his maker over Satan. This preceded his disobedience. Satan used post hypnotic suggestion by planting a corruptible image of God in the mind of the innocent, who knew nothing of guile.

Satan did not deceive Adam he deceived Eve and just like a man Adam followed his wife's seduction and did not listen to the words of God. Is that not what we do? There are so many times when Satan uses one human to tempt another, even though man knows better. Look at the some of the current so called great men of God who have succumbed to the lusts of the world and man and have left the Word that they have been preaching. We are no different than Adam. We the pot created to be used by our Potter have chosen to try to be what we are not meant to be and thus succumbed to the temptation. Lust sadly plays a great role. We all have free will to choose to succumb to the lust of the world or as God to help us and give us the strength to turn away. Adam should have rebuked Eve as the head of the couple. He failed in his position.

Course he was standing right there watching the whole deal and did nothing to stop it!

[childeye]

If the Potter uses a certain clay to make a pot, can the pot then decide that it wants to be bone china? God created Satan knowing what Satan would be like, envious. God also created man to love Him. He permitted Satan to test Adam and Adam failed. God came first, He is the potter. He knew what Satan would choose and do to God's creation yet He permitted it. Satan is the father of evil.

I like your post, it contains wisdom. Forgive my little criticism concerning "testing Adam". I do believe that mankind was beguiled. I say this because Satan did test Job, but Job did not fail. Adam was deceived because he was gullible in his innocence. Upon believing this, one can truly forgive from the heart saying, "They know not what they do". Other than that, I agree that God knew what Satan would do and permitted it. The mistake for Adam was not that he disobeyed God but that he did not trust his maker over Satan. This preceded his disobedience. Satan used post hypnotic suggestion by planting a corruptible image of God in the mind of the innocent, who knew nothing of guile.

Satan did not deceive Adam he deceived Eve and just like a man Adam followed his wife's seduction and did not listen to the words of God. Is that not what we do? There are so many times when Satan uses one human to tempt another, even though man knows better. Look at the some of the current so called great men of God who have succumbed to the lusts of the world and man and have left the Word that they have been preaching. We are no different than Adam. We the pot created to be used by our Potter have chosen to try to be what we are not meant to be and thus succumbed to the temptation. Lust sadly plays a great role. We all have free will to choose to succumb to the lust of the world or as God to help us and give us the strength to turn away. Adam should have rebuked Eve as the head of the couple. He failed in his position.

My dear, you offer a pleasing deviation from the stress of this thread for me. This morning I choose to address you first and foremost. You are correct in all of your points, except I would say, you judge Adam too harshly. Without being in Adam's shoes, you presume he should have known better. I did not speak of Eve, anywhere on this Forum for the sake of excusing her and her naivete. In this way a son shields his Mother. As for Adam, it is understandable for me, that when he saw Eve did not die, he was filled with doubt. I will not stand here before God and proclaim I would have done better than Adam. I seek mercy from our heavenly Father, and hope in His Love that was displayed on the cross. I am arguing here on this thread against the accuser of men and women, saying they, our carnal parents, did not know what they were doing.

[Isaiah 6:8]

Satan used post hypnotic suggestion by planting a corruptible image of God in the mind of the innocent, who knew nothing of guile.

I am arguing here on this thread against the accuser of men and women, saying they, our carnal parents, did not know what they were doing.

If they did not know what they were doing, and were doing it against there will then they would not be punished.

Where in the world do you get the outlandish idea that Satan used post hypnotic suggestion?

Wow you are adding to the word here. There is no evidence of this, you are making it up to defend your outrageous beliefs!

And I Don't think you challenge what I have posted as you have nothing really to say about it, you cannot with out twisting the Word, yet again, and with out using circular logic.