[~candice~]

This is not a proof text indicating we cannot know whether the rapture is pre or post trib. It just means what it says, that no one knows the day or hour. Not that we can't know the timeline. Infact, the disciples asked Jesus, and He told them . And what do you think 1 Thess 4 is about, if not the rapture?

Okay, I read those passages word by word....I narrowed it down to these, which I'm assuming you were referring to:

¹³But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

¹⁴For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

¹⁵For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ¹⁸Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I love to read this but.....it tells us we will be with Him forever; there's not a pre-trib, mid-trib or post trib message here, there's not even a confirmation of the Rapture. We can't let our own wishes color our interpretation of Scripture, sister. I want the pre-trib view to be true as well but we simply can't know until the Lord is ready.

I'm sorry I missed your post until now. I was responding to the fact you said that scripture doesn't even mention the rapture. But it's there in verse 17. What do you think v17 is about if not the rapture?

I still disagree with the interpretation that "we cant know the day or hour" means we cannot know pre or post trib. There is a world of difference between speculating about the day or hour, and determining the order of events in the end times. We can glean from what we are given in scripture a great deal about the timeline (not all, there are some things I find not 100% clear), but never to the point of day/hour etc.

[Guest LadyC]

Trav,

I didn't take issue with the thread or the topic...lol...or i wouldn't have looked at it in the first place. However, i do have an issue with folks taking things personally and making the thread a drama issue instead of a biblical issue. Keeping the thread focused is all my contention was...on the subject matter...not personalities.

EXACTLY the point i was trying to get across! not turning it into a battle zone where people are slinging rocks back and forth. looks like you got it across better than i did rad!

[~candice~]

I don't usually get involved in pre/mid/post rapture discussions as normally most posters are set in their ideas and don't change their views. There is nothing wrong with discussing these things and seeing if we can come to an understanding on the topic but usually these topics end up in fights where each side goes to the other: "I'm right and you are wrong." I am more than able to understand that I may have it wrong, just as others may do too, so I am prepared to go at a moments notice but at the same time prepared to stay for as long He needs me too - even if that means going through the tribulation. I am pre trib but to me it isn't important to my salvation. As this is not important to my salvation I believe in doing as Jesus said: Mat 24:42 Therefore watch; for you do not know what hour your Lord comes. That should be the attitude of us all.

Anyway that is my thoughts on the subject.

I agree it should be the attitude of us all. Although I admit I get a little concerned when I hear people [in general now, not you] say things that indicate they believe the rapture must be pretrib because of a general principle in scripture that God would not let us go through something as horrific as that (some even call it judgment, which I don't think it is).

That, I believe, is the wrong attitude, as we must all be willing to suffer persecution and hardships for our faith, and indeed scripture and especially the epistles have set up a standard where many people do suffer.

Attitude about the rapture is important therefore, not because the timing of the rapture is essential to salvation, but because the attitude can (not always, don't shoot me ) reveal thoughts about God and His nature and how He treats us (this is vitally important!). It is more these underlying thoughts that interest me when this topic comes up.

It's been my personal experience in my walk with God that He has not whisked me away in times of hardship or struggle, but rather stood by me as these things came and went. I guess I find it a foreign idea to think about the rapture and have Him whisk the church away from the coming tribulation. This attitude doesn't form my theology on the rapture but it does give me more confidence about getting through the great tribulation, the faithfulness of the Lord, and acts as a confirmation of what I believe (rather than a source).

Please don't think I'm accusing pre tribbers of thinking the way I do. I just want to share where I'm coming from. I believe we all will suffer persecutions and endure hardships, and that the church will endure the tribulation, as a great testimony of His faithfulness, provision, and power over the enemy.

[Nyoka]

I don't usually get involved in pre/mid/post rapture discussions as normally most posters are set in their ideas and don't change their views. There is nothing wrong with discussing these things and seeing if we can come to an understanding on the topic but usually these topics end up in fights where each side goes to the other: "I'm right and you are wrong." I am more than able to understand that I may have it wrong, just as others may do too, so I am prepared to go at a moments notice but at the same time prepared to stay for as long He needs me too - even if that means going through the tribulation. I am pre trib but to me it isn't important to my salvation. As this is not important to my salvation I believe in doing as Jesus said: Mat 24:42 Therefore watch; for you do not know what hour your Lord comes. That should be the attitude of us all.

Anyway that is my thoughts on the subject.

I agree it should be the attitude of us all. Although I admit I get a little concerned when I hear people [in general now, not you] say things that indicate they believe the rapture must be pretrib because of a general principle in scripture that God would not let us go through something as horrific as that (some even call it judgment, which I don't think it is).

That, I believe, is the wrong attitude, as we must all be willing to suffer persecution and hardships for our faith, and indeed scripture and especially the epistles have set up a standard where many people do suffer.

Attitude about the rapture is important therefore, not because the timing of the rapture is essential to salvation, but because the attitude can (not always, don't shoot me ) reveal thoughts about God and His nature and how He treats us (this is vitally important!). It is more these underlying thoughts that interest me when this topic comes up.

It's been my personal experience in my walk with God that He has not whisked me away in times of hardship or struggle, but rather stood by me as these things came and went. I guess I find it a foreign idea to think about the rapture and have Him whisk the church away from the coming tribulation. This attitude doesn't form my theology on the rapture but it does give me more confidence about getting through the great tribulation, the faithfulness of the Lord, and acts as a confirmation of what I believe (rather than a source).

Please don't think I'm accusing pre tribbers of thinking the way I do. I just want to share where I'm coming from. I believe we all will suffer persecutions and endure hardships, and that the church will endure the tribulation, as a great testimony of His faithfulness, provision, and power over the enemy.

I agree we should stand against heresy. For example if someone came to me and said that Jesus was coming to take us all away in a space ship then I would stand against that. I know that is an extreme example but I did have people tell me that lol. I know, as you do to, that God will never leave us nor forsake us through the good times or the bad so this is how I know that no matter how the end times play out then He will be with me through it - if it happens in my life time. Wether I am right or wrong over a rapture doesn't matter if one is ready to stay or to go depending on His will for you at that time. And that is what matters most, His will, on it. I know that many who believe different to me are my brethren in Christ and love my Lord with all their heart and soul. I also know you aren't accussing pre tribbers, or anyone else, about anything. I don't like the attitude of those pretribbers who won't even look at the possibility they might be wrong - I hate this in anyone over any doctrine. As I said there is nothing wrong in discussing the topic as long as we all realise we might just have things wrong over it. When we get to finally be with Him we can all have a good laugh over what we did get wrong.

[rollinTHUNDER]

First you need to precisely define what the trib is..... not everyone agrees on that, and a lot of confusion stems from that difference of thought..

Hello other one,

I totally agree. It seems that even most of our so-called prophecy experts miss this. If you want proper understanding, this should be the starting point.

Much confusion was created when scholars mis-named Daniel's 70th week the seven year tribulation.

There is no mention anywhere in the entire Bible of a seven year tribulation. It's true that the prince to come will confirm a covenant for one week (7 yrs.), with many, [Dan.9:26-27]. That will be Daniel's 70th week, which has been delayed since Messiah was cut off after the 69th week. The 70th week will resume in the future when the coming prince confirms the covenant with many for seven years.

The trouble is that instead of calling it the 70th week or the seven year covenant, most scholars today have re-named it the seven year tribulation. That makes it confusing enough, but then it gets more confusing when they start jumping to conclusions, assuming that the time of trouble mentioned in Daniel 12:1, which Christ called the tribulation in Matt.24, is the seven year tribulation.

Modern scholars have divided the seven years into two parts. The first 3 1/2 years they claim will be a false peace, which also is not supported by Scripture. Then the second 3 1/2 years are the great tribulation. This is nonsense. Daniel makes it very clear that this time of trouble (tribulation), will not begin until the abomination of desolation occurs. Christ confirms this in Matt. 24, when He warns those who live in Judea to flee to the mountains.

Scripture does not tell us how long the time of trouble (tribulation) will last. If we could know when it was going to end, we would also know that Christ is going to gather His elect immediately afterwards, but the Bible makes it very clear that no one knows the day or hour.

Daniel was given a timeline. The timeline, however, does not measure the length or duration of the tribulation, it only measures from the abomination of desolation to the time of the end. Two things are certain here. This time of trouble (Armageddon) is going to be the most horrifying war in the history of man, and no one knows how long it's going to last.

It's true that the abomination of desolation will take place in the middle of the seven year covenant, but there is no such thing as a seven year tribulation. And the length of time of the great tribulation is unknown.

[Guest man]

I still disagree with the interpretation that "we cant know the day or hour" means we cannot know pre or post trib. There is a world of difference between speculating about the day or hour, and determining the order of events in the end times. We can glean from what we are given in scripture a great deal about the timeline (not all, there are some things I find not 100% clear), but never to the point of day/hour etc.

What does the "Second Coming of Christ" and the "Rapture" or "Catching Up", have in common?

[Guest man]

The two witness' mentioned in Revelation, does that event occur during the tribulation?

I'm actually not sure; I'll have to reread that but I THINK that event occurs before the tribulation.

It occurs during. They will prophesy for 3 1/2 years before they are killed. "When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them."

Are the witness' killed at the beginning, the middle, or the end of the tribulation?

[OneLight]

The two witness' mentioned in Revelation, does that event occur during the tribulation?

I'm actually not sure; I'll have to reread that but I THINK that event occurs before the tribulation.

It occurs during. They will prophesy for 3 1/2 years before they are killed. "When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them."

Are the witness' killed at the beginning, the middle, or the end of the tribulation?

I believe it is at the middle or after. What so you believe?

[Guest]

Hi All. I am BeartheCross. I

[~candice~]

Hi All. I am BeartheCross. I've been a poster at Christian forums for several years.

How many of you have read the Tim La Hayes series Left Behind? I know these books were popular at one time. It is in fact for 13 years I used to be a pre trib Rapture believer. I followed along with Tim La Hayes and his partner Ed Hindson who helped them to make the Left Behind Movies.

As of today I am no longer a pre trib Rapture believer. The Pre trib Rapture is some kind of teaching that has become popular over the past few years. Many believe it simply because others do. But we must understand to agree with everyone is not necessarily to agree with God. For Jesus said unto man there is a way that seems to be right but those ways lead to destructions. The Lord wants us to know the truth.

If there be no Pre trib Rapture what then will happen? This is where we need to listen to Jesus. In Matthew 24 the Disciples privately asked Jesus these 2 things. What are the signs of your return and the End of the age? Notice they asked Him privately. But even though this was a private matter this was to be known to all those who read the Word of God about the Signs of the End of the age of the Return of Christ.

Now Jesus tells them take Heed. To take Heed means to pay close attention. That no one deceive you. That many shall go in my name.

We are not to believe anyone who says they are of Christ or they are the Christ or to believe them if they are not truly in the Word of God as it is written. We have a mixture of False Religions, False teachings many of them categorized as a Christian Denomination such as the Mormons. They teach in the name of Jesus but they teach all kinds of things that are not in the Bible at all.

Reading verses 1 to 9 you will also see other signs such as Wars and Rumors of wars. Hey look at the News papers there is plenty going on such as Earthquakes. We have seen those also such as pestilences that are serious epidemic Diseases and Famines. One must be globally watching by reading World news to see these things are taking place.

The problem is that Tim La Hayes teaches about this time the Rapture occurs. But that is not true. For Jesus said these are the beginning of sorrows that the end is near. But not yet if Jesus says it is not the end then we should believe Jesus and not La Hayes who says it is the end.

Jesus goes on to tell us about nation against nation. The Love of many will grow cold. Lawlessness will abound and even in all this the Gospel will be preached about the World and then shall come the end.

When Jesus tells us "Then shall come the End what he means is like the end of a movie. Now here is the end of the movie. Now see what happens.

Jesus then says you will be handed over into tribulations. "It does not say that Rapture is taking anyone away at this time. And it then says when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel Flee into the wilderness you of Judea.

Jesus was Born of Bethlehem of the Land of Judea. Somewhere in this region the Antichrist the abomination of desolation the man of perdition will be.

You see the Great Tribulation and the rise of the Antichrist happens at the end of the age. No one is leaving.

So is there rapture? Yes there is. But it will occur when Jesus returns and that for a good reason.

Jesus tells us no one knows the hour of the coming not Son of man or Angels or even the Son but only the Father knows that day.

Why does the Rapture need to occur at this time? It needs to occur because the way that Jesus will return. When Jesus returns it will be a day that anyone is alive can not miss this. For Jesus said as lightning from East to West. The Return of Christ is both a time of Judgment and also to establish the Millennium Kingdom of one thousand years with the Saints.

When Jesus returns there will be a Quake so great it will split mount Olives open. And every island will be covered for thus it is also the wrath of God to those who did not believe. For they who did not will not be caught up. They who are left will be killed. The Eagles will gather for the carcasses even so the Antichrist will be defeated on that very day.

For those who are alive in Christ or even dead in Christ in those days will be caught up with him. But they will not feel his Wrath. They shall follow him out of Heaven Revelations 19. The Heaven is Genesis chapter one verse 8 "And God called the firmament Heaven" New Kings James.

Please read Matthew 24 and you will observe the gathering occurs at the time of His return. Also read Thessalonians to see the definite answer that this is a one event. Not 2 events as Tim La Hayes has taught.

What should I do? Jesus says be occupied until that day. Keep watch. Continue in your faith and your walk with Christ. If you are in Him whether you live or die on that day you will be caught up with Him and rule with Him.

There is no rapture soon on the way. That happens at an unknown day in the latter Tribulations later after the Antichrist has been revealed.

Phooey. Amen, Lady C.

Way to add to the discussion.