The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

[Dutch42]

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

by Dr. Thomas Ice

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

-2 Thessalonians 2:3

I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

Find the full article here: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23

So what about the part of the verse that you have not addressed. "and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction". Pre-trib folks also believe that they will be raptured before the antichrist appears. But this verse also says the "day of Christ will not come until the antichrist is revealed,(for who and what he is) the son of destruction. One can not simply focus on only one part of a verse and come to a true and qualified conclusion or belief that is based on only half of a whole. We must take ALL of the verse into account not just half. Which means that if we take into account all of the verse then it should be pretty clear that to believe that we will be resurrected both before the great falling away and before the antichrist is revealed it is a controdictory scriptural belief given the fact that this verse clearly says that we will not be going anywhere until both the falling away happens and the antichrist is revealed No insult intended here but according to this verse it should be a no brainer.

I agree with you..

Interesting is this: From the Peshitta (Murdock Translation and Lamsa Translation) (copied from another forum where I post this)

It said this:Let no one deceive you in any way; because that day will not come, unless there previously come a defection, {or: rebellion} and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And the Lamsa Translation said Let no one deceive you by any way; for that day will not come, unless it is preceded by a rebellion and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Another ancient translation the Coptic Boharic:

And it said unless should come first the apostacy..

All those are ancient translations, translated from the Greek text into Aramaic or Coptic. I ask the legal question: If apostasia mean depart.. why can't we see this back in those translations.?

Good question and I hope I am understanding your question correctly. Maybe the reason we didn't see it back then is because they were expecting the falling away to take place during thier time. Most of the Christian world thought that the world was gonig to end and Christ was coming back in 1000 AD

Thank you for your answer..

The problem is the translation.. because the Greek word for apostasia (like we translate it) is actually the same as how it is translated in Aramaic. That the most of the Christian world thought that the world was going to an end, is no problem.. I think this is from all ages.. even today. And actually I think we have to live in an understanding that Jesus is coming soon.

I think, that apostasia means 'apostacy' falling of faith.. Even this day we can see it. In the western churches.. people are leaving the church and say goodbye to Jesus.. And in that case, we know that 2Tess 2:3 is fulfilling.

[panza70]

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

by Dr. Thomas Ice

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

-2 Thessalonians 2:3

I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

Find the full article here: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23

I believe these passages are talking about both the rapture and the second coming. IMO.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, folks.

The "apostasia" is a "departure" in the same sense as "divorce." It's literally a "standing-off" or a "standing-away." We might say "a legal separation," today.

NT:646 apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:

KJV - falling away, forsake.

NT:647 apostasion (ap-os-tas'-ee-on); neuter of a (presumed) adj. from a derivative of NT:868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce:

KJV - (writing of) divorcement.

NT:868 aphisteemi (af-is'-tay-mee); frm NT:575 and NT:2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:

KJV - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdrawself.

NT:575 apo (apo'); a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):

KJV - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

NT:2476 histeemi (his'-tay-mee); a prolonged form of a primary staoo (stah'-o) (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):

KJV - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare NT:5087.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Furthermore, it is important that you recognize another word in the verse being analyzed, "anomias."

NT:458 anomia (an-om-ee'-ah); from NT:459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:

KJV - iniquity, transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

NT:459 anomos (an'-om-os); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and NT:3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:

KJV - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

NT:1 a (al'-fah); of Hebrew origin; the first letter of the alphabet; figuratively, only (from its use as a numeral) the first:

KJV - Alpha. Often used (usually an, before a vowel) also in composition (as a contraction from NT:427) in the sense of privation; so, in many words, beginning with this letter; occasionally in the sense of union (as a contraction of NT:260).

NT:3551 nomos (nom'-os); from a primary nemoo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):

KJV - law.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, WHAT "Law" was he violating here? Well, what "Law" did the Jews have? They only had the LAW OF MOSES or the TORAH! This "man of sin" or "man of lawlessness" was a man against the TORAH! That would only be important to the Jews!

Now, look at the verses containing these words:

2 Thess. 2:3-4

3 Mee tis humas exapateesee kata meedena tropon. Hoti ean mee elthee hee apostasia prooton kai apokalufthee ho anthroopos tees anomias, ho huios tees apooleias,

4 ho antikeimenos kai huperairomenos epi panta legomenon Theon ee sebasma hooste auton eis ton naon tou Theou kathisai apodeiknunta heauton hoti estin Theos.

The Greek New Testament, edited by Aland, Black, Martini, Metzger, and Wikgren, 3rd ed. Copyright © 1966, 1968, 1975 by United Bible Societies.

3 Mee = 3 No

tis = one

humas = you

exapateesee = let-deceive

kata = according-to

meedena = not-even-one

tropon. = turn.

Hoti = Because

ean = if

mee = not

elthee = there-come

hee = the

apostasia = standing-off/defection-from-truth

prooton = first

kai = and

apokalufthee = uncovered

ho = the

anthroopos = man

tees = of-the

anomias, = against-Torah,

ho = the

huios = son

tees = of-the

apooleias, = ruin/full-destruction,

4 ho = 4 the

antikeimenos = contrary-liar

kai = and

huperairomenos = self-exalter

epi = above

panta = all

legomenon = said-to-be

Theon = God

ee = or

sebasma = adored

hooste = therefore

auton = he

eis = into

ton = the

naon = Temple

tou = of-the

Theou = God

kathisai = sits

apodeiknunta = exhibiting/displaying/showing-off

heauton = himself

hoti = that

estin = he-is

Theos. = God.

So, when one pieces this back together into an English translation, one will get...

3 No one you let-deceive according-to not-even-one turn. Because if not there-come the defection-from-truth first and uncovered the man of-the against-Torah, the son of-the ruin/full-destruction,

4 the contrary-liar and self-exalter above/over all said-to-be God or adored therefore he into the Temple of-the God sits exhibiting/displaying/showing-off himself that he-is God.

3 Let no one deceive you, not even according to one turn. Because [it won't happen] unless the defection from truth [has] come first and the man uncovered [who is] against the Torah, the son of the complete destruction,

4 the contrary liar, and self-exalter over all said to be God or adored; therefore, he sits into the Temple of the God displaying himself that he is God.

He will be the Extreme; he will be the epitome of being against the Jewish Law of Moses, and THAT is his defection from truth into which he leads many others. It's not just a "defection from the faith"; it's more JEWISH than that!

[Guest]

He will be the Extreme; he will be the epitome of being against the Jewish Law of Moses, and THAT is his defection from truth into which he leads many others. It's not just a "defection from the faith"; it's more JEWISH than that!

God's Law

And God spake all these words, saying,

I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:1-6

And worship

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Revelation 13:14-18

Or Worship

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Revelation 5:11-14

[Bold Believer]

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

by Dr. Thomas Ice

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

-2 Thessalonians 2:3

I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

Find the full article here: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23

So what about the part of the verse that you have not addressed. "and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction". Pre-trib folks also believe that they will be raptured before the antichrist appears. But this verse also says the "day of Christ will not come until the antichrist is revealed,(for who and what he is) the son of destruction. One can not simply focus on only one part of a verse and come to a true and qualified conclusion or belief that is based on only half of a whole. We must take ALL of the verse into account not just half. Which means that if we take into account all of the verse then it should be pretty clear that to believe that we will be resurrected both before the great falling away and before the antichrist is revealed it is a controdictory scriptural belief given the fact that this verse clearly says that we will not be going anywhere until both the falling away happens and the antichrist is revealed No insult intended here but according to this verse it should be a no brainer.

Uh, the word antichrist is never used in 2 Thess 2:3, nor in any part of the New Testament other than John's letters. Please don't put the term where it isn't used.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Apostasia does indeed mean "departure" and Paul said three times that something must depart before the man of sin is revealed.

"our gathering together unto him" is a departure.

being "taken out of the way" is a departure.

The "departure" comes first before the man of sin is revealed.

Paul was referring to the departure of the church before the man of sin is revealed.

Rev 12 and 13 confirm this order of events.

Hi Jen,

Our gathering and the departure (falling away) are not one and the same.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Two things will happen before that day arrives. Notice that Paul said that that day (Christ coming and our gathering unto Him) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Apostasia does indeed mean "departure" and Paul said three times that something must depart before the man of sin is revealed.

"our gathering together unto him" is a departure.

being "taken out of the way" is a departure.

The "departure" comes first before the man of sin is revealed.

Paul was referring to the departure of the church before the man of sin is revealed.

Rev 12 and 13 confirm this order of events.

Hi Jen,

Our gathering and the departure (falling away) are not one and the same.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Two things will happen before that day arrives. Notice that Paul said that that day (Christ coming and our gathering unto Him) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed.

No, the Day of the Lord that people were concerned about was the coming wrath. They were concerned that the Day of the Lord had come. Paul told them that Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath shall not come unless the departure come first and the man of sin is revealed whom Jesus will destroy by the brightness of His coming.

Unless the Greek word "apostasia", meaning departure, is translated correctly, people are confused as to what the restrainer is.

Don't you find it odd that Paul would say, "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering together unto him" and then supposedly say absolutely nothing about that gathering?

Don't you find it odd that Paul would say, "now you know what is restraining him" and yet its unclear as to what the restrainer is?

Don't you find it interesting that the mouth of the beast is blaspheming "heaven dwellers" in Rev 13, defined as the glorified church in Revelation 12? That means that the glorified church is dwelling in heaven when the 42 months of the "antichrist" begins when the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath starts.

Paul said the same thing in 1 Thess 4/5. The gathering occurs before the Day of the Lord/wrath begins.

When that Day begins is when the devil has 42 months to force people to make a choice for eternity before Christ comes to destroy those who choose poorly.

Good luck with that. :emot-wave:

[Rekrap]

Apostasia does indeed mean "departure" and Paul said three times that something must depart before the man of sin is revealed.

"our gathering together unto him" is a departure.

being "taken out of the way" is a departure.

The "departure" comes first before the man of sin is revealed.

Paul was referring to the departure of the church before the man of sin is revealed.

Rev 12 and 13 confirm this order of events.

Hi Jen,

Our gathering and the departure (falling away) are not one and the same.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Two things will happen before that day arrives. Notice that Paul said that that day (Christ coming and our gathering unto Him) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed.

No, the Day of the Lord that people were concerned about was the coming wrath. They were concerned that the Day of the Lord had come. Paul told them that Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath shall not come unless the departure come first and the man of sin is revealed whom Jesus will destroy by the brightness of His coming.

Unless the Greek word "apostasia", meaning departure, is translated correctly, people are confused as to what the restrainer is.

Don't you find it odd that Paul would say, "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering together unto him" and then supposedly say absolutely nothing about that gathering?

Don't you find it odd that Paul would say, "now you know what is restraining him" and yet its unclear as to what the restrainer is?

Don't you find it interesting that the mouth of the beast is blaspheming "heaven dwellers" in Rev 13, defined as the glorified church in Revelation 12? That means that the glorified church is dwelling in heaven when the 42 months of the "antichrist" begins when the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath starts.

Paul said the same thing in 1 Thess 4/5. The gathering occurs before the Day of the Lord/wrath begins.

When that Day begins is when the devil has 42 months to force people to make a choice for eternity before Christ comes to destroy those who choose poorly.

Rev 13

5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for yforty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all awho dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear:

10 If anyone is to be taken captive,

to captivity he goes;

if anyone is to be slain with the sword,

with the sword must he be slain.

Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints

Where does it say he is blaspheming the church? He Blasphemes God and those who dwell in it.

It also says he will make war with the Saints? They are not in Heaven? He even tells us that this is our call for endurance and faith.

So if the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and he is "raptured" with the church, how can there be Saints here?

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that qno one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is raccursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

How can anyone become a Saint without the Holy Spirit?

I would love anyone of the pre-trib thought explain 1 Cor 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We all will be changed at THE LAST TRUMP. Death is also killed! How is death killed before the tribulation and then more death is to come to the Saints. A Pre-trib rapture needs so much explaining to happen that it drives me crazy that people do not read the Bible for what it is!

Edited January 11, 2012 by Rekrap

[Montana Marv]

Rekrap

You said: Where does it say he is blaspheming the church? He Blasphemes God and those who dwell in it.

It also says he will make war with the Saints? They are not in Heaven? He even tells us that this is our call for endurance and faith.

So if the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and he is "raptured" with the church, how can there be Saints here?

Where was the HS in the OT; did He indwell or did He come upon individuals. The OT Saints are also considered Saints. In the same line of thinking; the "Tribulation" saints can also be those who the HS comes upon at times. Different than the indwelling of the HS which is given only to the Church or Bride of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that qno one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is raccursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

How can anyone become a Saint without the Holy Spirit?

A Saint is one who is Justified by Faith; OT, NT and Tribulation, and the Remnant of Israel at the Second Coming.

I would love anyone of the pre-trib thought explain 1 Cor 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This "Death is swallowed up in victory is not completed until after the Mill. For many die at the end of the Mill when they follow Satan and are consumed. Rev 20:7-9.

We all will be changed at THE LAST TRUMP. Death is also killed! How is death killed before the tribulation and then more death is to come to the Saints. A Pre-trib rapture needs so much explaining to happen that it drives me crazy that people do not read the Bible for what it is!

Rektrap

My responses are in Red above.

One must study who Christ is ruling with a "rod of iron" during the Mill. and why He must do so. If ALL have been resurrected and received their imperishable bodies, who is their to rule with a "rod of iron", since " all are like Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[goldust59]

I would love anyone of the pre-trib thought explain 1 Cor 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The last trumpet is the last Jubilee (Trumpet). I recommend you search the scriptures to understand how God established the Jubilee. The last one is when the change comes.

One thing you are missing about 1 Cor 15 is the fact that it says "WE". The "we" is not all mankind, it's the believers in Christ.

According to Romans 8, we (the church) are awaiting the redemption of our bodies which is the moment when Christ appears, the dead IN CHRIST rise, we are all changed to an immortal form and caught up to God.

1 Cor 15: 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wow, finally something I can agree with . I think the last trump is the last Jubilee trump too. I will have to look into what you say about the 'WE' in 1 Cor 15 a bit, since I had not 'read' it that way before.That may answer something for me.

Still believe we are here for the duration of the great tribulation though. Just not buying that God would take all the believers (that know what is happening & have maturity in Him) off the earth, then save a bunch of people (apparently without the Holy Spirit, since He leaves with the church-?), & then these 'babes' are left to stand against the antichrist regime. Nope, not buying it!