godrulz Posted July 28, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Time is not a created thing. Who said duration/sequence/succession must have a beginning?! Endless duration/time is eternal. Like love, time as a concept is an aspect of God's triune relations (cannot think, act, feel without duration). God is uncreated with no beginning and end. This does not mean He is timeless, whatever on earth that means for a personal being. Scripture portrays God acting in sequence on every page of Scripture. Creation is not co-eternal with God and Jesus is still not on the cross in an eternal now timeless simultaneity. Ps. 90:2 does show a before and after creation. This is meaningless if things are timeless. Rev. 1:4 uses tensed expressions about God (past, present, future) with no hint of philosophical timelessness. In Revelation, several passages talk about time in heaven/eternity (half hour, years, etc.). Duration, change, sequence, etc. is all about time. This is an aspect of His experience, not a limitation at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Time is not a created thing I did not say it was created. I said that time measured by a succession of changing events. Who said duration/sequence/succession must have a beginning?! Time by nature must have a beginning. God does not have a beginning, but time is not part of Him. He exists apart from time. If there is no change, if the unvierse does not exist, there is no time. If all there is, is God, there is no time, as God does not change. God is uncreated with no beginning and end. This does not mean He is timeless, it exactly means that. God cannot be measured. Time can be. Creation is not co-eternal with God and Jesus is still not on the cross in an eternal now timeless simultaneity.It would be really helpful if you ceased trying to refute arguments I have not raised. Ps. 90:2 does show a before and after creation. All it says that God existed before creation. It is describing God, not time. Rev. 1:4 uses tensed expressions about God (past, present, future) with no hint of philosophical timelessness. It is an expression of the eternal nature of God. God is timeless and He is in time. God existed before tiime. Yet because He created a physical unvierse and wants to be personally involved in our lives, he is also in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Actually, the eternal now view is the pagan, Platonic view adopted by Greek-philosophy loving Augustine. The Hebraic view is endless time (Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:27; Rev. 1:4), not timelessness. Saying omniscience and omnipotence mean that God can do anything and know everything is flawed. God cannot do the undoable (make married bachelors), nor does He know the unknowable (where Alice in Wonderland is). God can do all that is doable and know all that is knowable. There are some things that are inherently undoable/unknowable (logical absurdities) even for an omniscient/omnipresent God. Begging the question is not the way to prove a point. If one is not familiar with the depth of debate on these issues, one should not be dogmatic about the traditional view that is not truth (cf. impassibility is even being rethought by classical theologians who once defended the indefensible). Too much of the classic view is philosophically influenced (Platonic), not biblical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer112 Posted July 28, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 32 Days Won: 3 Joined: 09/06/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/29/1960 Share Posted July 28, 2011 God is not in the future since it is not a place. The visions of Revelation are visions, not actualities that exist before they exist? The future cannot proceed the present or past logically. God can bring to pass much of the future unilaterally (such as the wrath of Revelation and the Second Coming itself), but that does not mean He brings to pass and knows every tiny detail (nor is it necessary for an omnipotent God to do so). The building/parade analogy proves present knowledge in a spatial situation, but is not applicable to 'seeing' the future (bald assumption begging the question without evidence). The future is fundamentally different than the past/present and Einstein should have known better. I believe God is the Author and Director of this movie we live in. He's seen the show from beginning to end. The bible tells us the story. If God doesn't know every detail of the future then how can He prophecy the book of Revelation thru visions? Your saying God has not been to the future how can He know if there is going to be 12000 sealed from each tribe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer112 Posted July 29, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 32 Days Won: 3 Joined: 09/06/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/29/1960 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Tell me this... The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge? 1 John 3 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. I'm going to take this scripture by faith. God created a tree of knowledge (god and evil), so if He can create knowledge He is all knowing. Humans trying to figure out what God knows is like monkeys trying to figure out how we build cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 29, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) Tell me this... The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge? God the Father has all knowledge. Past, present, future, plus all the variables along the way from the limited sovereignty he gave men and angels to make choices. Jesus did not know when he would return the Father knows (Mark 13:32). The Spirit searches the mind of the Father (1 Corinthians 2:10) Acts 1:1-7 (NIV) 1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” 6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. Personal opinion time (warning take this with grain of salt and if it does not line up with scripture disregard): I have contemplated (not to the point of belief yet) that the three who are the one God were all on a higher plain of existence and function. Then person #2 and person #3 lowered themselves to be able to deal with lower beings like angels and then man on a temporal basis. Person #1 remained in that higher state and is the one who has all knowledge and does not relate to the progression that is temporal existence. This is how God (person #2) seemed not to know things in the Old Testament (Genesis 22:13b) and even in a few places in the New Testament. Jesus did said in the crowd (Mark 13:32) "who touched me?" Not, "YOU touched me!" See? Edited July 29, 2011 by JohnDB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted July 29, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Tell me this... The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge? 1 John 3 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. I'm going to take this scripture by faith. God created a tree of knowledge (god and evil), so if He can create knowledge He is all knowing. Humans trying to figure out what God knows is like monkeys trying to figure out how we build cars. This is not a proof text for exhaustive definite foreknowledge. The context is about God knowing all things in relation to our hearts, a present object of certain knowledge, unlike the not-yet future. It is not a blanket statement on omniscience, but a statement of His knowledge of our hearts (cf. Ps. 139 seeing us in the womb cannot be extrapolated to mean He has always seen the outcome of the 2012 Superbowl). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted July 29, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted July 29, 2011 God is not in the future since it is not a place. The visions of Revelation are visions, not actualities that exist before they exist? The future cannot proceed the present or past logically. God can bring to pass much of the future unilaterally (such as the wrath of Revelation and the Second Coming itself), but that does not mean He brings to pass and knows every tiny detail (nor is it necessary for an omnipotent God to do so). The building/parade analogy proves present knowledge in a spatial situation, but is not applicable to 'seeing' the future (bald assumption begging the question without evidence). The future is fundamentally different than the past/present and Einstein should have known better. I believe God is the Author and Director of this movie we live in. He's seen the show from beginning to end. The bible tells us the story. If God doesn't know every detail of the future then how can He prophecy the book of Revelation thru visions? Your saying God has not been to the future how can He know if there is going to be 12000 sealed from each tribe? He brings much or most of Revelation to pass. It is also more general than specific. It does not name exhaustive detail of who the 144K are, but it is predictable that He can influence that many to believe during the Tribulation and set them apart as special (more than that number convert in one evangelistic African meeting by some evangelists). Your movie analogy assumes that all of history is complete and finished. This is only possible if the actors right now have already lived their lives and died and the eternal state is now upon us. How can the future be settled in relation to zillions of present contingencies if the people do not even exist to settle it? How can what I am now typing be 'seen' before I exist to type it?! This is incoherent nonsense and desperation to retain a flawed preconception uncritically despite the biblical/logical evidence against it. Everything before this moment in 2011 is part of the film in the can. The camera is still rolling and the film is blank in relation to 2012 ff. The future cannot be like the fixed past and actual present unless choices precede the choices (huh?). Time is unidirectional, not timeless. Creation is not co-eternal with God nor is Jesus forever hanging on the cross (there is duration in God's experiences!). The unique measures of time are created (sun, moon, stars, clocks). Time itself is not a created thing, but a concept. Just as love is eternal with God, so is endless duration the nature of His triune experience before creation and ever since. If there is a moment before and after time ) for human history, then this shows there is duration in God's experiences (or creation is co-eternal with Him in some sort of timeless 4th dimension which is worse than speculation...science fiction, actually). One should not claim eternal now is true since there is no biblical or logical support for it and much against it (which most of you are not aware of because you just accept the Sunday School view). Introduction to this topic (check Wolterstorff out): http://www.amazon.com/God-Time-Views-Paul-Helm/dp/0830815511 Since most of you are not aware that there is more than two views on the subject, it is too early to be dogmatic unless you can articulate and refute the other views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted July 29, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2011 For that to happen, it would mean that at some point in history, God ceased being God. Are you saying that God has never experienced rejection in the hearts of man ? Just because there are those on earth who reject and fight against God doesn't mean God ceases being God. By "not" accepting God into ones life and refusing to walk in obedience to his will simply means that "God does experience what it is like not to be God in their lives." But all who reject and rebell against God in "no" way says or implies that God ceased being God for that is impossible and it will never happen, but it does mean "God has experienced what it is like knowing how it feels to be rejected not to be God in the hearts and minds of those who do not accept him. Omniscience means "knowing everything" this being the case it would include both "propositional" and "experienential" knowledge lest it wouldn't fit into God "knowing everything." Has God ever experienced being personally sinful? (Has God ever sinned?) No and No to both of your questions for this really shouldn't even deserve a reply as it should be obvious that God has "never experienced the practice of "personal" sinfulness. For God is "Holy" and God has told us, in the Word-- "But as He which hath called you is "Holy," so be ye "holy" in all manner of conversation;" (behaviour) Now even though God has never experieced or practiced sin he is still very aware of the devastation sin has brought into this world. This being the case I would have to say that God has experienced sin "but not in the way of personal practice of sin but through knowledge." God posesses the knowledge of sin and what it will do and what it has already done in the world and he is not ignorant in this arena. You can have the knowledge of things without engaging in sinfulness. God does have the knowledge of sin and has experience with with his knowledge of sin "BUT NOT IN THE WAY YOU MAY PROJECT IT TO BE." (Caps are for emphasis only) It was God who created evil he created both good and evil and if God has no knowledge or experience with evil or sin then Who knew about it ? And who was it that created sin or evil ? God is omniscience and he knows everything that exist he is the creator of all knowlege even things that makes no sense to our natural minds. All comes from God and all belongs to Him Has God ever experienced a need that was beyond His ability to meet? The answer is so. God is fully self-sufficent and has never been in need. God has always had the power to see that his will is brought to pass just as he has chosen the foolisness of preaching to confound the wise. In bringing to pass his will to save the lost he calls individuals and has given them gifts and grace to preach, teach, exhort and so forth. God uses ordinary people to minister the word of reconciliation between God and the lost sinners. This is how God is meeting his need in saving the lost as he calls, then saves and ordains and sends forth messengers to go forth spreading the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ as how shall they hear without a preacher. God is fully self-sufficent and never been in need. God is Sovereign and the whole of the universe operates by his word as he told the sun to give light in the daytime and the moon to give light at night and since God told the sun and moon to do this they have done it faithfully every day since. God has a will of his own and it is self sufficent and within that will he has vessels to carry out certain aspects of his wishes. Has God ever experienced what it is like to have been created from nonexistence? God must have experienced something as we along with the creation of the earth is proof that God had a beginning and he was there at the time. The argument in the rest of your post seems to be that God "experienced" what it is like not to be God because of the sinfulness and rebellion of mankind, but that doesn't cut it and has nothing to do with the question. What I posted was that God has experienced by not being allowed to be God in the lives of people as they reject him refusing to accept his love. This rejection grieves the heart of God and this is how he knows what it is like and is experienced. From my standpoint it does have revelance to the question no matter if it cuts it or not. The truth is that there are experiences that God could not have without contradicting His Deity. God has never experienced being sinful. He has never experienced non existence. He has never experienced need or insufficiency. God has never been in a position where he had to depend on someone else to meet His needs. Somethings we really do not know but we give it our best shot anyway and we limit God when he has no limits. But that does not mean that God is not omniscient. God is omniscient knowing everything without limits he knows all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methinkshe Posted July 29, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 679 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/02/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2011 Time is not a created thing. Who said duration/sequence/succession must have a beginning?! Endless duration/time is eternal. Like love, time as a concept is an aspect of God's triune relations (cannot think, act, feel without duration). God is uncreated with no beginning and end. This does not mean He is timeless, whatever on earth that means for a personal being. Scripture portrays God acting in sequence on every page of Scripture. Creation is not co-eternal with God and Jesus is still not on the cross in an eternal now timeless simultaneity. Ps. 90:2 does show a before and after creation. This is meaningless if things are timeless. Rev. 1:4 uses tensed expressions about God (past, present, future) with no hint of philosophical timelessness. In Revelation, several passages talk about time in heaven/eternity (half hour, years, etc.). Duration, change, sequence, etc. is all about time. This is an aspect of His experience, not a limitation at all. This is interesting..... I think I see where you are coming from. Are you, for instance, suggesting that God's foreknowledge is less "crystal ball knowledge" (to use human terminology) and more "I will bring it to pass" and therefore because what God WILLS must always OCCUR, then he knows what will come to pass because he knows what He wills WILL happen - if you follow me! That is not in any way to detract from the conditions that sometimes accompany God's will in relation to humanity. He has given humanity freedom to choose and does not IMPOSE his will on us. Although I must admit that I get stumped right here because humanity's freedom to choose and God's will seem to be at odds with one another. He WILLS all men to be saved, but we know that because we have freedom of choice not all men will be saved. So in that instance, God does not "bring to pass" His will. Hmmm...... Also, if there is a concept of "it is finished" as Jesus said from the cross, then there cannot be an eternal "now". Perhaps such misunderstanding is what gives us the R.C. Mass - the continual re-offering of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Or have I entirely misunderstood the thrust of your reasoning and am just tying myself up in knots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts