Believer112 Posted July 30, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 32 Days Won: 3 Joined: 09/06/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/29/1960 Share Posted July 30, 2011 God is not in the future since it is not a place. The visions of Revelation are visions, not actualities that exist before they exist? The future cannot proceed the present or past logically. God can bring to pass much of the future unilaterally (such as the wrath of Revelation and the Second Coming itself), but that does not mean He brings to pass and knows every tiny detail (nor is it necessary for an omnipotent God to do so). The building/parade analogy proves present knowledge in a spatial situation, but is not applicable to 'seeing' the future (bald assumption begging the question without evidence). The future is fundamentally different than the past/present and Einstein should have known better. I believe God is the Author and Director of this movie we live in. He's seen the show from beginning to end. The bible tells us the story. If God doesn't know every detail of the future then how can He prophecy the book of Revelation thru visions? Your saying God has not been to the future how can He know if there is going to be 12000 sealed from each tribe? He brings much or most of Revelation to pass. It is also more general than specific. It does not name exhaustive detail of who the 144K are, but it is predictable that He can influence that many to believe during the Tribulation and set them apart as special (more than that number convert in one evangelistic African meeting by some evangelists). Your movie analogy assumes that all of history is complete and finished. This is only possible if the actors right now have already lived their lives and died and the eternal state is now upon us. How can the future be settled in relation to zillions of present contingencies if the people do not even exist to settle it? How can what I am now typing be 'seen' before I exist to type it?! This is incoherent nonsense and desperation to retain a flawed preconception uncritically despite the biblical/logical evidence against it. Everything before this moment in 2011 is part of the film in the can. The camera is still rolling and the film is blank in relation to 2012 ff. The future cannot be like the fixed past and actual present unless choices precede the choices (huh?). Time is unidirectional, not timeless. Creation is not co-eternal with God nor is Jesus forever hanging on the cross (there is duration in God's experiences!). The unique measures of time are created (sun, moon, stars, clocks). Time itself is not a created thing, but a concept. Just as love is eternal with God, so is endless duration the nature of His triune experience before creation and ever since. If there is a moment before and after time ) for human history, then this shows there is duration in God's experiences (or creation is co-eternal with Him in some sort of timeless 4th dimension which is worse than speculation...science fiction, actually). One should not claim eternal now is true since there is no biblical or logical support for it and much against it (which most of you are not aware of because you just accept the Sunday School view). Introduction to this topic (check Wolterstorff out): http://www.amazon.co...m/dp/0830815511 Since most of you are not aware that there is more than two views on the subject, it is too early to be dogmatic unless you can articulate and refute the other views. The way the Muslims are rising up against Israel, Israel won't be around too much longer with one push of the button. If God doesn't know the future than God could be wrong about the 144K or any number thats is given in the book of Revelations? How did God foreknow Jesus would be crucified if there's all these contingencies you talk about? When a movie is created it's creator knows the story from beginning to end. huh? How can the future be settled in relation to zillions of present contingencies if the people do not even exist to settle it? How can what I am now typing be 'seen' before I exist to type it?! With our human peanut brains it would be hard to understand the things of God. It's like you being a monkey trying to figure out how humans build cars. Sounds like your trying to bring God down to your level. You may not know whats in store for you tomorrow, but God does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer112 Posted July 30, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 32 Days Won: 3 Joined: 09/06/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/29/1960 Share Posted July 30, 2011 There are philosophical truths not dealt with explicitly by Scripture that are relevant to the debate. Open Theism's strength is its hermeneutic and biblical basis (your view must make many verses figurative that can be taken at face value if you change the view). Some issues will not be resolvable by a proof text and relate to paradigms (determinism vs free will, etc.). We agree that God is sovereign, but the evidence favours providential sovereignty, not meticulous control (esp. relating to problem of evil). www.gregboyd.org exegetes many proof texts and objections. It is not fair to say there is no biblical support for it just because I am not regurgitating 30 years of my research on a non-academic forum. A Critique of Greg Boyd's Open Theism link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methinkshe Posted July 30, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 679 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/02/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2011 So where does the following fit in? "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Surely this is foreknowledge. And these: Romans 8:28 - 30 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Psalm 147:5 5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite. 1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Isaiah 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Isaiah 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. I have to conclude that God knows the future - intimately, intrinsically, even, not just a rough idea. Regarding free will. I have always believed that only God is autonomous and has free will; i.e. that which He wills He is able to perform. Men are derivative creatures. By birth, a man derives his spiritual nature from Satan. Through re-generation a man is restored to a pre-fall condition of deriving his spiritual nature from God. Humanity has freedom to choose but only as far as his derivative spiritual nature allows. Since the nature of Satan is everything that God is not, then God can know antithetically Satan's will in a person. And since His Spirit is in the regenerate, He knows His own will. Men's choices will be defined by the actuating spirit - either Satan or God. Moreover, because God says: "you did not choose Me but I chose you" and "no man can come to me except the Father draw him" we know that it is God who moves in a man to draw him to respond to God's calling or, conversely, does not. Thus even man's freedom to choose is limited. He doesn't have free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godrulz Posted July 30, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 885 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1960 Share Posted July 30, 2011 The issue is corporate vs individual predestination/election. God predestines and foreknows that He will have a people for Himself, Israel and the Church. Which individuals eventually become part of this group are not foreknown/predestined. We know the schedules of flights far in advance. The flight is predestined to go from NY to LA next year. As to who buys a ticket, does not die or get sick or cancel, who is not late and misses the flight, who changes to another earlier/later flight, etc. is not predestined. All who board the actual plane in a year a part of the flight group that fulfills the foreknowledge/predestination. Election is corporate, conditional, in Christ. Calvinists proof text these verses as individual election to retain TULIP, a flawed view. Critics of Open Theism are generally Calvinistic and would argue the same basic way against Arminians. The ones I have read often misunderstand and misrepresent the Open View (straw man attack). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted July 30, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2011 Tell me this... The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge? Omniscience means "knowing everything" this being the case it would include both "propositional" and "experienential" knowledge lest it wouldn't fit into God "knowing everything" following that your take that omniscience would have to include all experiential knowledge.... Has God ever experienced what it is like to not be God? Yes, God has "experienced" what it is like to not be God." For God "experienced" this when he came down to this earth in the form of his Son Jesus Christ. Even though Christ was crucified it in no way meant that God ceased being God for that will never ever happen. The Word says, "his ways are past finding out." We can allow our "imaginations" to take us away from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 There are philosophical truths not dealt with explicitly by Scripture that are relevant to the debate.We are talking about God. What is most relevant is Scripture. The Scripture is God's self-disclosure of Himself. If what you are saying is true, then you should be able to make your case from Scripture. Instead Open Theism's strength is its hermeneutic and biblical basis (your view must make many verses figurative that can be taken at face value if you change the view). Like what? Provide some examples for review. Some issues will not be resolvable by a proof text and relate to paradigms (determinism vs free will, etc.). We agree that God is sovereign, but the evidence favours providential sovereignty, not meticulous control (esp. relating to problem of evil). We are talking about God. If you can make a Scriptural case the philosophical end will fit right in. It is not fair to say there is no biblical support for it just because I am not regurgitating 30 years of my research on a non-academic forum. I am not asking that much from you. I just want to you to put the relevant scriptures up for review and independent analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted July 30, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2011 Yes, God has "experienced" what it is like to not be God." For God "experienced" this when he came down to this earth in the form of his Son Jesus Christ. Even though Christ was crucified it in no way meant that God ceased being God for that will never ever happen. Isn't this self contradictory??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Quote following that your take that omniscience would have to include all experiential knowledge.... Has God ever experienced what it is like to not be God? Yes, God has "experienced" what it is like to not be God." For God "experienced" this when he came down to this earth in the form of his Son Jesus Christ. No, that is when he felt what it was like to be human. He has never experienced what it is like not be God. Even though Christ was crucified it in no way meant that God ceased being God for that will never ever happen. What you don't seem to understand is that for God experience what it iis like to not be God, He must cease to be God. You are trying to have it both ways, and it simply is not going to work. Omniscience means "knowing everything" this being the case it would include both "propositional" and "experienential" knowledge lest it wouldn't fit into God "knowing everything" Has God ever expereienced personal sin? In other has God ever experienced committing a sin and violating his own Holiness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 30, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,341 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,539 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 30, 2011 If one portion of open theism can be proved wrong then all collapses... Gen 22:16-18 Abrahamic promise of enumerable offspring Ex 32:7-14 God reasoning with Moses to destroy this promise The open theist give this as example but reasoning is flawed in this way: God is working with Moses here bringing along toward friendship with God... Moses saw only procreation as the keeping of this promise by God "as sworn upon Himself" and the fact that Moses saw the ultimate truth founded in God Himself to be the most or highest concern. This 'Pleased God' because God granted Moses his mind in this... However when the fullness of Truth was born we were taught by Him (Jesus Christ) and Angels that behold Him: Christ Matt 19:26 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." NKJV Gabriel Luke 1:37 37 For with God nothing will be impossible NKJV The revealed truth In Christ Matt 3:9 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. NKJV This also teaches us that with regard to Himself (God) relationship is the highest goal of The Father, Son, Holy Spirit! Within us the resource is the Person of the Holy Spirit "all things become possible"... Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methinkshe Posted July 30, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 679 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/02/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2011 If Satan and sin are synonymous in the same way that God and good are synonymous, (i.e. God IS good, intrinsically and uniquely) it logically follows that Satan IS sin. And God cannot be Satan, thus God cannot sin. But does that mean that God cannot, in Jesus, vicariously have experienced our sin on the cross? Not that He sinned, but that He bore our sins. One can only surmise from the description of Jesus' torment in the Garden of Gethsemane, and His cry from the cross: my God, my God, why hast thous forsaken me? that He must have experienced something terrible beyond measure: was He not experiencing (or bearing) the sin of the whole world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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