oh hmm evolution

[~candice~]

*** disclaimer, I believe Genesis is literal, but with telescoping I think it happened quite some time ago

OK so I've been thinking. We are quick to point out that it's not just humans affected by the fall, but all of creation. So things are not as He designed it, death disease decay etc. So I'm curious. He commanded animals to procreate after their own kind. What is to say that this command has not been violated since the fall? Perhaps speciation is another departure from His intended but thwarted design.

Now if we consider that is possible, and that sufficient time has passed, then is there really anything wrong (contradictory) with observing speciation in fossil records etc?

Just curious

Part B of my musings to come...

[~candice~]

Part B, I'm struggling to put in words.

Did God design the animals knowing that Adam would fall and hence they would change (for example, death entered, so some animals became carnivorous). Did they have the right digestive system and teeth etc before the fall, so that they would be provided for immediately after the fall? I'm thinking of Ps 104.

If the answer is possibly yes, I wonder if speciation, or the ability / propensity towards such a change, is not yet another of these accomodations that were not part of His initial intention but yet included to encourage diversity and continuation of flora on earth despite the fall.

I hope I'm making sense .

[JHERB]

[~candice~]

chicken

[Guest]

My LORD And My God

O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. Psalms 8:1

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Now if we consider that is possible, and that sufficient time has passed, then is there really anything wrong (contradictory) with observing speciation in fossil records etc?

There Is Nothing Wrong With Man's Tales Of The Formation Of New And Distinct Species

Appearing In The Course Of Eons And Eons Of Evolutionary Creation

Except For The Truth About His Power

When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? Psalms 8:3-4

Except For The Truth About His Power

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1:14-19

And The Truth Showing Forth From Within The Record Of God's Crushing Judgment On Mankind

And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. Genesis 7:17-20

Where We See The Sudden Appearance (Miraculously http://www.worthychristianforums.com/uploads/emoticons/default_laugh.png' alt=':laugh:'> ) Of All Creatures Great And Small

And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. Genesis 7:21-22

Written For Any Who Would Dare An Unbiased And Simple Reading Of This Journal Found Within The Earth

Written Within The Debris Field Laid Down During The Noah Family Cruise

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days. Genesis 7:13-24

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After All Dear Ones, Creation Is God's Stuff

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. Ecclesiastes 3:11

So Apply The Eyes

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Of Faith

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:3

And Of True Science

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:20-21

And Know Of The Power Of Jesus And Of The Truth Of His Holy Word

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Ephesians 3:8-12

Praise His Mighty Name

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Tired Of Sin

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:36

And Of Doubts

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28

Than Take A Walk

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. John 12:25-26

With The Man From Galilee

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:16-18

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

[~candice~]

Written Within The Debris Field Laid Down During The Noah Family Cruise

[Dragoon]

*** disclaimer, I believe Genesis is literal, but with telescoping I think it happened quite some time ago

OK so I've been thinking. We are quick to point out that it's not just humans affected by the fall, but all of creation. So things are not as He designed it, death disease decay etc. So I'm curious. He commanded animals to procreate after their own kind. What is to say that this command has not been violated since the fall? Perhaps speciation is another departure from His intended but thwarted design.

Now if we consider that is possible, and that sufficient time has passed, then is there really anything wrong (contradictory) with observing speciation in fossil records etc?

Just curious

Part B of my musings to come...

A thought:

In an environment where all needs are provided for, and there is no want, would animals 'need' to be carnivorous?

The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox

(Is 11:7)

Was this what life was like before the Fall?

My understanding (though I'm far from a Primatologist) is that even Chimpanzees will deviate from their fruit diet when times are lean. They will even very occasionally attack and eat other animals (including primates).

Are carnivores a consequence of the Fall?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

*** disclaimer, I believe Genesis is literal, but with telescoping I think it happened quite some time ago

OK so I've been thinking. We are quick to point out that it's not just humans affected by the fall, but all of creation. So things are not as He designed it, death disease decay etc. So I'm curious. He commanded animals to procreate after their own kind. What is to say that this command has not been violated since the fall? Perhaps speciation is another departure from His intended but thwarted design.

Now if we consider that is possible, and that sufficient time has passed, then is there really anything wrong (contradictory) with observing speciation in fossil records etc?

Just curious

Part B of my musings to come...

A thought:

In an environment where all needs are provided for, and there is no want, would animals 'need' to be carnivorous?

The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox

(Is 11:7)

Was this what life was like before the Fall?

My understanding (though I'm far from a Primatologist) is that even Chimpanzees will deviate from their fruit diet when times are lean. They will even very occasionally attack and eat other animals (including primates).

Are carnivores a consequence of the Fall?

Yep "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so" (Genesis 1:30).

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Part B, I'm struggling to put in words.

Did God design the animals knowing that Adam would fall and hence they would change (for example, death entered, so some animals became carnivorous). Did they have the right digestive system and teeth etc before the fall, so that they would be provided for immediately after the fall? I'm thinking of Ps 104.

If the answer is possibly yes, I wonder if speciation, or the ability / propensity towards such a change, is not yet another of these accomodations that were not part of His initial intention but yet included to encourage diversity and continuation of flora on earth despite the fall.

I hope I'm making sense .

I had a barn cat that would eat frozen and cooked vegetables, and I've seen videos of cows that eat chickens. It's just a matter of what God descides they'll eat.

As far as speciation, I'm a stanch YEC but I do totally accept speciation, while I totally reject every facet of evolution on any level. I believe speication is the deteroration of the genome to the extent that different breeds from the same common ancestor no longer have enough in common genetically to continue to reproduce with other members of their kind. It doesn't mean that something new is being created, just that something old is breaking down.

[~candice~]

*** disclaimer, I believe Genesis is literal, but with telescoping I think it happened quite some time ago

OK so I've been thinking. We are quick to point out that it's not just humans affected by the fall, but all of creation. So things are not as He designed it, death disease decay etc. So I'm curious. He commanded animals to procreate after their own kind. What is to say that this command has not been violated since the fall? Perhaps speciation is another departure from His intended but thwarted design.

Now if we consider that is possible, and that sufficient time has passed, then is there really anything wrong (contradictory) with observing speciation in fossil records etc?

Just curious

Part B of my musings to come...

A thought:

In an environment where all needs are provided for, and there is no want, would animals 'need' to be carnivorous?

The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox

(Is 11:7)

Was this what life was like before the Fall?

My understanding (though I'm far from a Primatologist) is that even Chimpanzees will deviate from their fruit diet when times are lean. They will even very occasionally attack and eat other animals (including primates).

Are carnivores a consequence of the Fall?

Yes I think carnivores are a result of the fall.

Part B, I'm struggling to put in words.

Did God design the animals knowing that Adam would fall and hence they would change (for example, death entered, so some animals became carnivorous). Did they have the right digestive system and teeth etc before the fall, so that they would be provided for immediately after the fall? I'm thinking of Ps 104.

If the answer is possibly yes, I wonder if speciation, or the ability / propensity towards such a change, is not yet another of these accomodations that were not part of His initial intention but yet included to encourage diversity and continuation of flora on earth despite the fall.

I hope I'm making sense .

I had a barn cat that would eat frozen and cooked vegetables, and I've seen videos of cows that eat chickens. It's just a matter of what God descides they'll eat.

As far as speciation, I'm a stanch YEC but I do totally accept speciation, while I totally reject every facet of evolution on any level. I believe speication is the deteroration of the genome to the extent that different breeds from the same common ancestor no longer have enough in common genetically to continue to reproduce with other members of their kind. It doesn't mean that something new is being created, just that something old is breaking down.

OK, I'm a "literal 6 yom but quite some time ago" creationist, clear as mud? I think He supernaturally created and speciation is a result of the fall. So I'm not saying that evolution had any creative power, but that it has thwarted creation after it was designed / started by Him. Make sense?